Powder, Shot, Pressure

[squirejohn]

Breaking clay pigeons is required at some smoothbore shoots. After quite a bit of experimenting the best load, pattern, and adequate energy needed to break a pigeon at 25yds is 55g of 2F and 2oz of #6's loaded in a paper shot cup with several slits cut partially down the cup. My Lyman Black Powder Handbook shows maximum recommended pressure(LUP) of about 6500. However their data don't go down as low as 55g of powder or as high as 2oz of shot. The info contained in their tables of powder,shot and pressure would suggest my load is OK as far as the max 6500 LUP pressure is concerned - but I'm not sure. I would appreciate any thoughts or info regarding this load - Thanks

 

[squirejohn]

I forgot to mention the smoothbore is 20 guage, and wonder if anyone has info as to whether or not this load is safe regarding pressure?

 

[2172]

John, don't know if this'll help or not, but I shoot trap with a dbl bbl 12 ga. I use 1&1/4 oz #9 shot, and 90 gr of ff....I doubt if your described load is a hazard...Hank

 

[squirejohn]

Hank, thanks for the feedback. The first load I tried was 70g of ff and about 1.3 oz of #9. This combo produced a fair pattern but wouldn't break a clay pigeon at 25 yds. The same load with #71/2 would sometimes break a pigeon at 25 yds if hit with enough shot. The pattern was pretty sparse however. The #6's maintain enough energy to consistently break pigeons at 25 yds. but in order to get a decent pattern I had to way up the chrge to 2 oz. The reduced powder charge and paper shot cup seem to help insofar as pattern density is concerned in this 20g fusil. The general consensus (rule of thumb)around here is, in order to shoot pigeons with straight cylinder trade guns - reduce the powder and up the shot. However during the course of a year I probably average only about half a doz. shots with bird shot since most of these targets aren't incorporated in most of the shoots.

 

[2172]

SquireJohn, I think most of our claybird shots are at a closer range than 25 yds...we have a pretty informal trap shoot, and I'd guess that we
break 'em somewhere closer to 15-20 yds. I don't think I ever heard the idea of "reduce the powder, increase the shot"...I can understand the "increase the shot" part, but why "reduce" the powder? Is it because of a feared blow-through in the shot charge? I use an over the powder wad and a cushion wad, then the shot, and then a thin paper wad.
I have copies of most of the writings on M-L shotgunning by the late Jeff Harrell (a much missed good friend), and I don't recall anything like that in there...I'll go back and check, and let you know . Jeff wrote for Muzzleblasts in the early '80's...Best, Hank

 

[Randy]

Less powder and more shot was always the rule for breaking clay birds where I'm from. I don't recall anyone using 2oz. in a 20 ga. But it was common to see it in 10 and 11 ga. guns, we didn't like to compete with those guys. (they broke to many targets). I wouldnt be afraid of that load as long as you have a sound, modern barrel, with an inch or more at the breech.

 

[roundball]

FYI...to make a long range turkey load for my
.62cal/.20ga, I settled on 70grains of Goex FFFg and 1.5oz #6 in a paper shot cup...averages 29 pellets in a 4" tuna can at 30 yards, and they make a complete pass through the tuna can which is made of fairly heavy stong metal...

 

[squirejohn]

Thanks for all the responses.
Hank - The reason I picked 25yds is that seemed to be about the average closest distance I could "get on the birds" - reflexes kida slow.

Horse Doctor - My breech is a little over 1". I've never heard of 2oz. in a 20 ga either so that's why I was concerned about the pressure and safety. (The actual load I developed was 50g of 2F and 1.8 oz. of shot. I figured in the "heat of battle" and using my 70g measure I may exceed the load somewhat. Whatever load I eventually end up with I will make a separate measure for shot and powder so as not to exceed shot/powder load).

Roundball - Seems as though you've developed a real "murderous" turkey load. You're way ahead of me in your paper shotcup developement. With my load at 30yds. I could probably "throw" a fair sized hen through the shot pattern. Also at 25yds. I only manage to hit a soup can with 5 or 6 pellets at the most. What's your secret?

 

[roundball]

Not sure I have any secret, but I'll tell you the load configuration that I ended up with:

28" - .62cal (.20ga) smoothbore barrel
70grns Goex FFFg
1st prelubed Oxyoke wonderwad
Over powder card
2nd prelubed Oxyoke wonderwad
Paper shot cup
1+5/8ozs #6's
Over shot card
Prime and shoot

For me, #6's tightened up the pattern a lot as the heavier the shot the better they tend to keep boring more straight ahead than lighter shot;

(To avoid tearing up smaller game and/or at closer ranges, use less shot, or just a shorter cup with the same amount of shot so some of the shot is above the cup and starts to spread more quickly).

I make my paper shot cups from post-it notes rolled around a .5" dowel that's been built up with a few layers of tape. You want the finished cup to have about .020" clearance all around it when it's held inside the bore, so it has room to expand and split at ignition setback time.

Post it notes don't require any glue due to their tacky edge, and when rolled around a properly built up dowel, they will stop just short of two complete revolutions, leaving a narrow strip of only a single thickness of paper which aids in bursting at setback time.

Just fold one end in tight and crease it like you would rolling a roll of coins, slide it off the dowel, pour in the amount of shot you want to use and cut off the excess paper...you now have a custom shot cup for the amount of shot you're going to use...they work perfectly.

Just set the second wonderwad down the bore a couple inches, set the shot cup down on it, pour in the shot, install the OS card, and gently seat the whole thing, being careful not to crush and
burst the cup prematurely by applying too much pressure **.
(** This is just my opinion not to prematurely burst the cup, it's not based on any science...
mine work perfectly for me so: if it ain't broke don't fix it, etc)

And the height of the paper must be no taller than the amount of shot that you're using or the excess will fold over when you seat it, and cause inconsistent separation & shot column disruption from shot to shot. Plus, if you fold over too much excess, the whole thing goes all the way to the target like a slug !!

The cup should immediately flare, shred, and flutter to the ground literally within 5 feet of the muzzle.

Give it a try...

 

[squirejohn]

Roundball: Many thanks for your detailed shot load procedure. I printed out your instructions and will definitely give it a try. The method I used was somewhat similar - I used a 5/8" dowel sanded down to just under bore size, and heavy brown paper from a grocery bag for the shotcup, and a fiber cushion over the powder. The fiber wad loaded very hard and it was pushed down the barrel before the paper shot cup. In a clean bore, the shotcup was loaded at the muzzle, the OS wad placed on top, and then all pushed down the barrel - with seemingly little resistence. I too experienced that with too long a shotcup the whole load goes through the pattern board in one hole. For that reason I made the cup a "tad" shorter than than the amount of shot and cut 6 slits at the top of the shotcup similar to a modern plastic shotcup. (Incidentely, I tried a modern shotcup and it resulted in no better pattern than no cup at all). Upon firing, the shotcup goes a good 15ft and usually has just one side blown out. Since this procedure didn't work I'm off to the village to get some Postits. It will be a while before I can get some Oxeyoke Wonderwads so if the fiber wads don't work I'll try using OP and/or OS wads and toilet paper. Thanks again - will let you know how it turns out.

 

[No Powder]

At a few of the events I shoot at you are not allowed to use any kind of cup for your shot, just wads. What I do is mix my shot about 1/3 #6 and the rest #8 Then I pack it tight. I don,t know if the smaller shot squeezes around the larger or what but I do know my patten inproved. Not as good as a cup but sure inproved my scores. At an event, on a trail walk the scenario was you needed to shoot at a flying target (clay pidgeon) but you had no wads and had to use rolled up leaves, for your wads. Another good excuse for a miss. This does help a lot with the topic but does give you some suggestions if you run into this kind of event.

 

[roundball]

SQUIREJOHN:

1) In my opinion, grocery store bag paper is way too heavy and strong...won't burst and shred fast enough...even slitting the sides it still went much farther than a post-it note will...although I am surprised that it didn't give tight patterns unless it was upsetting the shot colum trying to get away from it...try the post-it notes and do not cut any sides...the splitting at setback time is all that's needed;

2) Not sure how much you sanded down the 5/8" dowel but unless you really got aggressive, I'd be worried that wasn't enough clearance around the paper cup to allow it to split/burst at setback...on my .5" dowel, I ended up layering on a half dozen strips of 2" wide clear scotch packing tape lengthwise on the dowel.

3) I used a TC Arms powder measure set at 120 grains to throw the shot based upon an article I read that had estimates in it like that...but now however, compared to an actual shot measure I recently got, I may have only been using 1.5oz (1+4/8oz instead of 1+5/8oz like I'd mentioned)

The bottom line is I was using however much shot a TC powder measure holds at the 120 grain setting...let us know how things turn out

 

[squirejohn]

ROUNDBALL - Well I went and got Postit notes, made up a few shotcups and tried it out - it worked - sort of - let me explain: I took too few shots and tried too many variables to come up with a definite "best load". The best shotcup form I could find was a "Colorific" marker that tapered from 0.56 to 0.58" in diameter. This resulted in a shotcup that fit perfectely in the barrel - i.e. just enough friction to hold in place at the muzzle so it wouldn't slide down the barrel. I also varied the wadding - using fiber wads, toilet paper, and hornets nest. I also tried a few with hornets nest sandwiched between two OP wads and no shotcup. When I used HN and TP with a shotcup I left out the top OP wad.

The best pattern insofar as density and uniformity was with a cup and fiber wad (55 pellets in a 6" circle), and with no cup and hornets nest wadding ( 44 in 6" circle). The two worst, but still acceptable, were with a cup and hornets nest, and no cup and hornets nest ( 41 & 27 respectively in 6" circle). The other 4 shots all exhibited good shot/density pattern -
ranging from 27 to 56 in 6" circle. I forgot to say all shots were at 25yds, with 55g of 2F, and 1.7oz of #6 shot.

At 25yds, most, if not all of the shots were on the 26" x 32" pattern board whereas last week less than half the shot (2oz #71/2) hit the pattern board! I suspect that part of the problem may be the fiber cushion wads. Even though these were lubed with canola oil, they loaded about as hard as a patched roundball and with considerable more recoil than with HN & TP. Maybe the fiber wad blew through the shot pattern. Although the "best" shot yesterday was with a fiber wad, it was the first shot through a clean bore and the Postit shotcup remained intact - out 15 yds from the muzzle. Even though I swabed between shots, after 3 shots all the rest of the Postit cups split down the side. (All fired cups were from 10 to 20yds from muzzle). In any event, I am very satisfied with yesterdays results. When I get some Oxeyoke Wonderwads I'll give her another try. Thanks!!!!
PS I also messed up and cut some of the shotcups too short so that about 1/8" of the 1.7oz of shot was above the shotcup. The result was these also (same as too long) sailed through the pattern board in a lump.

NO POWDER: I had thought about using green vegetation if wads weren't allowed. Although hornets nest is period correct, if not carefully encased in a tin or box, it soon winds up as dust. The less I have to haul along the better!!
Besides at my age I'd probably forget I had it.

 

[musketman]

What about using silk or light weight linen?

We patch round balls, why not shot?

 

[roundball]

SquireJohn, it sounds like you're on the right track...I did all my work at 30 yds and when I tested the final configuration at 40 yards I was still shocked...these loads with reach way out and take a turkey head/neck no problem at all;
Or a squirrel atop a 100 tree in the swamp, etc;

Now here's another little surprise you can do with the versitle .62cal smoothbore...big ball buckshot loads:

Drop three .50cal 180gr round balls into a shot cup and try it at 30 & 40 yards.
I got an impressive 6 inch pattern at 30-40 yards with the target stapled on the side of a large wooden cable reel like the power companies use.

The three .50cal lead balls passed through the near side 2" of wood, crossed the open air space, and passed through the far side 2" of wood.

If you're in thick cover at these distances, three
.50cal round balls spread 6 inches will have very high odds that one will get through.

 

[No Powder]

Musketman
Won't silk melt in the barrel?

 

[musketman]

I shot a silk round ball patch a couple of times before, just to try other patching options. The recovered patch was in tact and seemed to hold up in my smoothbore.

I would imagine that in a rifle, that might be another story, lands and grooves would cut it easly.

The patch was also lubed, so this helped it from burning through.

Nylon would melt, as so would polyesters.

If you were to use a silk "cup" to hold shot, there would still be a heavy over-the-powder card between the burning powder and the silk and maybe even a 1/2 inch fiber wad to boot.

Anyway, it was just a thought.