Taylor Sheffield knife?

[Mad L]

I just picked this knife up at a gun show. I looks like my vintage Green River butcher and Skinner knives but it's stamped "Taylor" and appears to have a worn away logo they used called "Eye Witness".
The seller ($10) and I assume it is a Bonning knife with the tip worn off, I also note in the photo some more stampage under the word 'Tayor' may have worn away (perhaps from excessive shapening?) maybe it at one time said "Taylor Sheffield"?
I am familiar with Green River and their history back into the Fur Trade era but I can't find anything on Taylor knives. Iternet had them as a British make starting around 1845 or so but none of the photos show any Skinner type blades or any with these 5-pinned wooden handles like the Green River blades. I did read that when the parents died the daughter who was running a 'Pocket Knife' company took over.
Anyone know if Taylor Sheffield, or some other 'Taylor' produced such utilities blades in 1800s or there abouts?
Blade is 6.5 inches, 11 inch total length.
Anyway it looks good with my Green River butcher and skinner...I would just like to learn a bit more of it's possible history.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I'll check the references I have on hand, but right off the top of my head, your knife has a 19th century look to me. If it doesn't specifically say "Made in Sheffield" or "Made in England" in a stamping somewhere, it is probably pre-1891. As far as I know, the "Eyewitness" knives were British.

In my opinion, you may have a butcher knife, with the blade worn away from repeated sharpening. The early knives had little or no choil, meaning the blade was little if any wider than the handle at the hilt. I am open to contradiction, but that's the way it looks to me at first blush.

The early butcher knives also typically had tapered half-tangs, hafted with two scales held with six pins. Of the old butchers I have seen and examined, the British cutlers favored a 2-1-1-2 pin pattern. As time rolled on, many British cutlers continued to use half tangs, but with a mono-block handle rather than the two scales. American knife makers supplying the western trade, such as John Russell and Shapleigh, didn't really get rolling until the 1840's, and they favored full tangs a lot sooner than the British cutlers. Russell frequently used five pins in that 2-1-2 pattern that is on your knife, except on the really big blades. Shapleigh favored six pins in a 2-2-2 pattern on all of their early butcher knives, as far as I know.

There are a few names in old-time cutlery that pop up frequently, but there were also tremendous numbers of other cutlers trying to compete. Consequently, there was a lot of variation in the cutlery they produced, and generalizations about these knives don't always apply to individual artifacts.

One other thing... I think George Catlin, the artist, pointed out that the common trade knife on the western frontier was identical to the common kitchen and butcher knives of his day. We (myself included) see these old knives with pin-fastened handles and enjoy pondering the buffalo that were skinned and the scalps that were lifted with them, but it is likely that a lot of them came out of Midwestern farm houses, and never skinned anything more formidable than a potato. There's nothing wrong with imagining the possibilities, though!

Speaking for myself, I would appreciate it if you could take a few more pictures. One end view showing the butt of the knife, and one showing the top or spine of the handle, with a view of the tang, and any other perspectives you would care to show.

Thanks for posting, and congratulations for your acquisition of this interesting old knife!

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Feltwad]

Bob have a word with Rudyard I am sure he will be able to help
Feltwad

 

[Red Owl]

The other thing, early stamp making usually did not have lettering, only a logo and then maybe one large letter. The rotation also changed with time. First you held the knife point up to read the mark, later with the point horizontal. So that can assist in figuring a date. The 5 pins- that existed far past 1840 so that in itself isn't much help. I used to have a good contact in Sheffield, I very nice lady who was on the staff of one of the museums and she had access to the vault with the original stamp records but unfortunately I lost contact with her. The stamp mark is the best key to learning the history of the knife.

 

[Mad L]

I'll check the references I have on hand, but right off the top of my head, your knife has a 19th century look to me. If it doesn't specifically say "Made in Sheffield" or "Made in England" in a stamping somewhere, it is probably pre-1891. As far as I know, the "Eyewitness" knives were British.

In my opinion, you may have a butcher knife, with the blade worn away from repeated sharpening. The early knives had little or no choil, meaning the blade was little if any wider than the handle at the hilt. I am open to contradiction, but that's the way it looks to me at first blush.

The early butcher knives also typically had tapered half-tangs, hafted with two scales held with six pins. Of the old butchers I have seen and examined, the British cutlers favored a 2-1-1-2 pin pattern. As time rolled on, many British cutlers continued to use half tangs, but with a mono-block handle rather than the two scales. American knife makers supplying the western trade, such as John Russell and Shapleigh, didn't really get rolling until the 1840's, and they favored full tangs a lot sooner than the British cutlers. Russell frequently used five pins in that 2-1-2 pattern that is on your knife, except on the really big blades. Shapleigh favored six pins in a 2-2-2 pattern on all of their early butcher knives, as far as I know.

There are a few names in old-time cutlery that pop up frequently, but there were also tremendous numbers of other cutlers trying to compete. Consequently, there was a lot of variation in the cutlery they produced, and generalizations about these knives don't always apply to individual artifacts.

One other thing... I think George Catlin, the artist, pointed out that the common trade knife on the western frontier was identical to the common kitchen and butcher knives of his day. We (myself included) see these old knives with pin-fastened handles and enjoy pondering the buffalo that were skinned and the scalps that were lifted with them, but it is likely that a lot of them came out of Midwestern farm houses, and never skinned anything more formidable than a potato. There's nothing wrong with imagining the possibilities, though!

Speaking for myself, I would appreciate it if you could take a few more pictures. One end view showing the butt of the knife, and one showing the top or spine of the handle, with a view of the tang, and any other perspectives you would care to show.

Thanks for posting, and congratulations for your acquisition of this interesting old knife!

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

Thanks for all the info. Here are some more pics.
It is full tang, the thickness appears even from end to end.
The scales look identical to two early 1900 Green River blades I have so at first I thought I found a different blade to my GR set, perhaps a fillet or boner, but then I say the stamp "Taylor" and what appears to be the 'Eyewitnesses' logo.

I suppose it could be a heavily sharpened butcher, but someone really loved this blade as that is a lot of metal to whittle away.

 

[Notchy Bob]

Thanks for the additional pictures! However, as far as I know, your knife is an anomaly. It has the look of great age, but all of the 19th century knives I have personally examined have tangs tapered in thickness. I've been unable to track down that particular logo or maker's mark. This publication, "Trademarks on Base-Metal Tableware," has several listings under then name of Taylor, as well as the "Eyewitness" mark, but I didn't see anything quite like what you have.

Here are some old British butcher knives I have accumulated:

The top two are definitely the oldest. I think the fourth one is likely early to mid 20th century. The top three all have six-pin handles made from two slabs or scales of wood, which I believe to be beech. The apparent seventh "pin" in the second knife is a lanyard hole, bored through by some previous owner in the distant past. The bottom one, obviously, is a bare blade. It was like that when I got it. I think about rehafting it now and then, but always decide to leave it as it is, as an educational tool. I would consider a 19th century British knife with a five-pin handle to be unusual.

This top view shows the same knives in the same order, but left to right instead of top to bottom:

Note the half-tangs tapered in thickness on the first three, and on the bare blade. The tang on the fourth knife is not tapered, and it is also inserted in a "block" handle instead of scales. If you look back at the first picture again, you'll count only four pins in this knife handle, arranged in a 2-1-1 pattern. I think this particular knife is of 20th century production.

This next picture shows the butt ends of the same knives. Note the two scales or slabs on all of the first three knives:

For comparison, here are some American-made Green River knives...

These all have five-pin handles, arranged in a 2-1-2 pattern, and full length tangs that are tapered in thickness. Since I took these photos, I have also acquired an old Shapleigh knife with a six pin handle. I don't have a picture of mine, but it looks a lot like the one in this photo I snagged from the web:

The six pins or rivets are arranged in a 2-2-2 pattern on the Shapleigh knife. You don't see much about Shapleigh knives in print, but a lot of them seem to turn up in old sheaths from the native people of the northern plains, likely dating from the reservation era. I don't think brass cutler's rivets really came into use before the 1890's. More recent ones have brass rivets, and frequently have the Shapleigh name on the blade, but "Old Hickory" on the handle.

Anyway, I don't know what to make of your knife, except to say that I like it! I hope you find more about it, and share the information.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Mad L]

Thanks for the additional pictures! However, as far as I know, your knife is an anomaly. It has the look of great age, but all of the 19th century knives I have personally examined have tangs tapered in thickness. I've been unable to track down that particular logo or maker's mark. This publication, "Trademarks on Base-Metal Tableware," has several listings under then name of Taylor, as well as the "Eyewitness" mark, but I didn't see anything quite like what you have.

Here are some old British butcher knives I have accumulated:

View attachment 105215

The top two are definitely the oldest. I think the fourth one is likely early to mid 20th century. The top three all have six-pin handles made from two slabs or scales of wood, which I believe to be beech. The apparent seventh "pin" in the second knife is a lanyard hole, bored through by some previous owner in the distant past. The bottom one, obviously, is a bare blade. It was like that when I got it. I think about rehafting it now and then, but always decide to leave it as it is, as an educational tool. I would consider a 19th century British knife with a five-pin handle to be unusual.

This top view shows the same knives in the same order, but left to right instead of top to bottom:

View attachment 105216

Note the half-tangs tapered in thickness on the first three, and on the bare blade. The tang on the fourth knife is not tapered, and it is also inserted in a "block" handle instead of scales. If you look back at the first picture again, you'll count only four pins in this knife handle, arranged in a 2-1-1 pattern. I think this particular knife is of 20th century production.

This next picture shows the butt ends of the same knives. Note the two scales or slabs on all of the first three knives:

View attachment 105217

For comparison, here are some American-made Green River knives...

View attachment 105218

These all have five-pin handles, arranged in a 2-1-2 pattern, and full length tangs that are tapered in thickness. Since I took these photos, I have also acquired an old Shapleigh knife with a six pin handle. I don't have a picture of mine, but it looks a lot like the one in this photo I snagged from the web:

View attachment 105219

The six pins or rivets are arranged in a 2-2-2 pattern on the Shapleigh knife. You don't see much about Shapleigh knives in print, but a lot of them seem to turn up in old sheaths from the native people of the northern plains, likely dating from the reservation era. I don't think brass cutler's rivets really came into use before the 1890's. More recent ones have brass rivets, and frequently have the Shapleigh name on the blade, but "Old Hickory" on the handle.

Anyway, I don't know what to make of your knife, except to say that I like it! I hope you find more about it, and share the information.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

Thanks much for all the information!! I will have to book mark this post.

I knew the blade caught my attention for some reason, good mysteries are hard to come by. When I picked it up thinking it Green River and began looking for the mark, the seller walked over pointed out it was Not GR...I asked how much, he said $10, I checked the handle tightness and said "Sold"

Thanks again for all the info, certainly more then I thought I would get by posting - but it also gave me a chance to searching and learn a little too (I don't like to post without first making an effort )