Patent Breech trouble.

So i have a pedersoli kentucky that never sees petrolium products and the breech is cleaned well with water and a shaped scraper. The problem im having is when shooting after the 6th or so shot the dang thing wont fire. I swab between shots and i end up with fouling inside the patent breech. I have to pull the vent liner and clean it out and put powder in that way to clear the ball. Should i just use a thinner patch so i dont have to swab or is there a tick. I use 50% balistol and water on my swabs. Have tried spit with the same results. I never have this problem with my smooth bore. It has a normal breech and i dont swab. Thanks

mancill said:

It has a normal breech and i dont swab. Thanks

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Normal???? the title says "patent"
either way sounds like you are pushing crud into the breech.
Don't swab? You said you put ballistol on your swabs
I'm confused.
.
I'd swab with alcohol or something that doesn't have oil (Ballistol) in it.

I have a Traditions Shenandoah that suffers the same problem. You might make sure the swabbing patch is only damp. I also very lightly tamp the butt of the rifle on the ground after adding powder and slap the left side of the gun in the breech area before priming. You also might check use a touch hole cleaner too. I've also found wiping the flint, pan and frizzen for a good pan flash helps.

I don't like a patent breech on a flintlock.

Carbon 6 said:

Normal???? the title says "patent"
either way sounds like you are pushing crud into the breech.
Don't swab? You said you put ballistol on your swabs
I'm confused.
.
I'd swab with alcohol or something that doesn't have oil (Ballistol) in it.

Click to expand...

The normal and no swabing was my smooth bore that doesnt have this problem.

Is your patch and jag combo too tight and your pushing the fouling down the bore instead of pulling it out ? Your jag and patch should go easy down and then grab the fouling on the way out, and don’t pump it in and out either.

That patent breach is one of the biggest reasons I don't shoot my Pedersoli Frontier that much anymore. Granted I can usually go 25 or 30 shots before it gives me trouble, but, when it does stop firing, it's always that little chamber being crudded up that is the culprit. Now, I do Not swab between shots. Also, I use 3f which seems to burn cleaner, but that's anecdotal not scientific opinion.

I just never feel 100% confident I've gotten that little chamber clean enough and dry enough when I'm done with the gun.

Brokennock said:

That patent breach is one of the biggest reasons I don't shoot my Pedersoli Frontier that much anymore. Granted I can usually go 25 or 30 shots before it gives me trouble, but, when it does stop firing, it's always that little chamber being crudded up that is the culprit. Now, I do Not swab between shots. Also, I use 3f which seems to burn cleaner, but that's anecdotal not scientific opinion.

I just never feel 100% confident I've gotten that little chamber clean enough and dry enough when I'm done with the gun.

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Using 3F sounds like a very good idea, perhaps Swiss would be even cleaner.

mancill said:

So i have a pedersoli kentucky that never sees petrolium products and the breech is cleaned well with water and a shaped scraper. The problem im having is when shooting after the 6th or so shot the dang thing wont fire. I swab between shots and i end up with fouling inside the patent breech. I have to pull the vent liner and clean it out and put powder in that way to clear the ball. Should i just use a thinner patch so i dont have to swab or is there a tick. I use 50% balistol and water on my swabs. Have tried spit with the same results. I never have this problem with my smooth bore. It has a normal breech and i dont swab. Thanks

Click to expand...

So, you are using a shaped scraper to clean the patent breech. Are you also using the shaped scraper when you wipe between shots?

What you are describing is a failure to fire due to something clogging the flash channel. Since it takes five shots or so to start having the problems, it stands to reason that the swabbing is pushing fouling into the patent breech. The next thing to do is to try to figure out how the fouling is getting into the touch hole. Then we have to determine how to keep fouling from the patent breech.

Perhaps it is time to do something different.

The first suggestion is to run the damp patch down the barrel to the start of the patent breech and fire a cap to drive the fouling from the touch hole into the damp patch to be removed from the patent breech. Firing a cap after the 5th shot will do essentially the same thing except the fouling won't be drawn out by the wiping patch.

The second suggestion is to turn the shaped scraper diameter down some to minimize the pushing of powder into the patent breech. You want the wiping patch to ride over the fouling in the barrel and to bunch up and pull the fouling out.

The third suggestion is to wait with wiping until the powder is poured and the ball is started at the muzzle and the short starter has moved the patched ball a few inches down the barrel. Then dampen a patch to use with the seating jag to push the ball down the barrel and that will clean residual powder fouling from the bore.

mancill said:

So i have a pedersoli kentucky that never sees petrolium products and the breech is cleaned well with water and a shaped scraper. The problem im having is when shooting after the 6th or so shot the dang thing wont fire. I swab between shots and i end up with fouling inside the patent breech. I have to pull the vent liner and clean it out and put powder in that way to clear the ball. Should i just use a thinner patch so i dont have to swab or is there a tick. I use 50% balistol and water on my swabs. Have tried spit with the same results. I never have this problem with my smooth bore. It has a normal breech and i dont swab. Thanks

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You might want to try a method I have come up with for my cap patent breech guns. Instead of swabbing I made a separate loading rod with it's own muzzle protector and instead of a jag on the end I use a stiff bristle brush. Here is why it works.
I don't swab between shots but rather after the barrel is fouled with the first shot the next powder load is dropped in the fouled barrel. The rod with the bristle brush is pushed down to the fresh powder, given a quarter turn and withdrawn. This pushed the dry fouling down bore on top the the fresh powder. Now the lubed patched ball is seated as normal.
This avoids pushing any fouling ,wet or dry into the powder chamber. Each shot clears the powder chamber and vent hole leaving both dry and clear for the next reload. The stiff brush keeps the barrel fouling under control for the whole ten shot string.
I shoot a whole ten shot relay this way and then swab to clean between relays. No more hang fires or misfires in my patent breech cap gun. I see no reason why it wouldn't work just as well for you.

I have the same rifle. It does not have as deep a "Patent Breech" as the Frontier/Blue Ridge model. Swab after you load if you feel the need to swab. When I do swab I only lick a patch to slightly moisten it and pull the dung out instead of so much of it down.

When target shooting I use a liquid patch lube that cleans the bore while you load the ball. Plus when I seat the ball with my range rod there will be a licked patch on it so I'm swabbing as I'm seating. I shoot a 20 shot match plus a few practice shots. I go through the entire match this way.

Bob

I shoot a Pedersoli Kentucky often in matches, and don't swab between shots. I swab before loading the first ball, fire a cap to clear the channel and don't swab again until I'm through with the match. The pistol never has given me any problems, and shoots quite good. I use a fairly wet patch on the ball, and it sort of cleans the barrel somewhat as I load it, and swabbing is not necessary.

WHEN YOU FIRE A RIFLE THERE IS A GREAT DEAL OF PRESSURE BEHIND THE PATCHED BALL. THERE IS ALSO A LOT OF PRESSURE GOING IN THE OTHER DIRECTION AS ANYONE WHO HAS STOOD TO THE RIGHT OF A FLINTLOCK WHEN IT'S FIRED AND GETS HURT BY THAT VERY HOT SQUIRT OFGAS FROM THE TOUCH HOLE CAN TELL YOU.
WITH A PERCUSSION RIFLE THAT SAME BACK PRESSURE EXISTS BUT IS THWARTED FROM LEAVING BECAUSE THE HAMMER IS HOLDING THE EXPENDED CAP TIGHTLY OVER THE NIPPLE.

THE HOT SHOT NIPPLE AVAILABLE FROM TRACK OF THE WOLF HAS TWO HOLES DRILLED CROSSWISE THAT WILL LET A LOT OF THIS GAS AND CRUD FLY OUT AND IN EFFECT, CLEAN OUT THE PATENT BREECH.

I FIRED TWO RIFLES WITH PATENT BREECHES FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS AND NEVER HAD THE PROBLEMS YOU MENTION AND NEVER SPENT ANY TIME CLEANING THAT BREECH AREA.I USED THE HOT SHOT NIPPLES ON BOTH RIFLES.

DUTCH SCHOULTZ

Brokennock said:

That patent breach is one of the biggest reasons I don't shoot my Pedersoli Frontier that much anymore. Granted I can usually go 25 or 30 shots before it gives me trouble, but, when it does stop firing, it's always that little chamber being crudded up that is the culprit. Now, I do Not swab between shots. Also, I use 3f which seems to burn cleaner, but that's anecdotal not scientific opinion.

I just never feel 100% confident I've gotten that little chamber clean enough and dry enough when I'm done with the gun.

Click to expand...

mancill said:

I swab between shots and i end up with fouling inside the patent breech.

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Others have touched on this. But I'll ditto their thoughts. I believe your jag is too large and/or your swabbing patch is too wet. A jag should be loose and the swab patch only damp. The jag does not do the cleaning, the patch wadded up pulls the crud out as the rod is removed. I once inadvertently used a .40 cal. jag in my .45 cal. rifle for an entire day. It swabbed and cleaned just fine. You can chuck up your jag in a drill and turn it down slightly. I use the flat side of a file to do that little job.

I agree with Rifleman 1776. I also use a smaller than bore sized jag, with an alcohol dampened patch to swab, but I do not swab all the way to the bottom of the breech. I stop at my loaded rifle mark on my ram rod, then pull the patch and goo out. Has worked for me for 20 years without a hitch.

Good advice on using the proper size jag and patch to prevent pushing fouling into the breech chamber. The OP's question was about a flint lock for those who did not read his whole posting. The concept behind what should be called the "chambered breech" or "English breech" on flint locks or "patent breech" on percussion guns is that the smaller than bore size combustion chamber helps to increase breech pressure resulting in a cleaner and more efficient burn of the powder charge. While this does actually work it is possible to circumvent the advantages by incorrect loading and cleaning procedures.

curator said:

While this does actually work it is possible to circumvent the advantages by incorrect loading and cleaning procedures.

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Wise that you included this information. Lot of variables in this ml game can change 'things'. I must admit I have never used a flintlock rifle with a patent type breech. Quite a few cap poppers but never flint. However, my standard swabbing/cleaning techniques have worked just fine for me with those. A note of caution with those 'patent/british/nock/etc.' breech styles for those new to this game. The wrong size jag can jam up inside the narrowed portion of the breech. Your jag must be small enough to not get stuck.

I have several different cap lock guns with the patent type breech including several TCs and several Traditions. I rarely have problems with them. When you go to a flintlock with the patent breech it is a whole new issue.

mancill said:

So i have a pedersoli kentucky that never sees petrolium products and the breech is cleaned well with water and a shaped scraper. The problem im having is when shooting after the 6th or so shot the dang thing wont fire. I swab between shots and i end up with fouling inside the patent breech. I have to pull the vent liner and clean it out and put powder in that way to clear the ball. Should i just use a thinner patch so i dont have to swab or is there a tick. I use 50% balistol and water on my swabs. Have tried spit with the same results. I never have this problem with my smooth bore. It has a normal breech and i dont swab. Thanks

Click to expand...

I have the Traditions Penn with the same patent breech. It's a poor design but it can be cleaned and made to shoot well with some different steps in loading to ensure a consistent ignition :

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...breech-cleaning-tool-dyi.108352/#post-1456656

Thanks for the reply guys. What i ended up doing is going to a thinner patch and ball. .480 with muslin patch. Goes down easy with no need to swab. Shoots exactly where my other combo did. Have tested it to 100 yards. Shot about 15 shots with out swabbing. Then i used some tow and alcohol and then shot another 15 with no problem. Think i have a winning procedure for me.