Underhammer Target Rifle: Ken Bresien action with Ron Long .502 Barrel with false muzzle. I would like some advice regarding loading and equipment.

Hello All,

I recently purchased what was advertised as a Ron Long underhammer rifle; seller got the rifle in on trade and really did not know anything about the rifle. I have been looking at 80s vintage underhammer rifle pictures, and I have figured out that what I actually have is a Ken Bresien underhammer action with a Ron Long barrel, not sure if Ron assembled the rifle or the original owner.

The barrel is marked Ron Long .502 and the made date in 7/85, and measures 1-1/8" at the breech and 1" at the muzzle. I measured the rifling twist rate last night and it's 1 in 60" twist, so set up for round ball bench shooting I suppose. The rifle came with no sights and I have mounted some target sights that I already had. I need to measure the false muzzle bore, so not sure what size ball and patch the original owner was using.

Do any of you have experience with such a rifle? I'm starting at ground zero equipment wise for this blackpowder rifle, I have a old Lyman lead pot, and roughly a hundred pounds of melted wheel weight (1970-80s wheel weights) ingots. I need powder a powder measure, powder horn, drop tube, ram rod, ball mold, etc.. I did order the Black Powder Rifle Accuracy System by Dutch Schoulz from ebay, which had good reviews here and it should at least offer some good guidlines of where to start on load develepment.

Any advice on good equipment to purchase (or stay away from), and/or where to start on developing loads, ball size, patches, lubes, etc. would be greatly appreciated.

Best regards,
Montie

What you have is a light bench or cross stick rifle. Will probably weigh in at close to 15 lbs which is the limit on that type. The false muzzle will be coned for ease of loading of tight ball and patch. Some shooters would actually use oversized balls in them. I don't really think that is necessary. In my .50 cal I used a .495 ball with a .020 patch and won a lot of matches with it. If you are going to try and shoot competition with it then spend some time to work up the absolute tightest group and practice every chance you can. If you want to win then your targets need to look like the picture I posted. While that target did take first place I have shot groups like that which only got a good smoke award. Shooting cross stick and light bench can be very frustrating. The best advice I can give you is don't worry about what the others have shot, shoot against yourself. If at the end of the day you can walk off the line and say you have the best target you can shoot then you have won no matter where you placed. Never be afraid to shoot against some one who you think is better than you,

Hello ronaldrothb49,

Thank you for the reply; the seller said the rifle weighs 11.1 pounds without sights, but have not weighed it myself. Very nice shooting and good advice, thank you. I should probably just order some different size balls and patch material to see what the rifle likes and go from there.

Best regards,
Montie

I realized I didn't give anything on equipment. First off you need a string or small chain to attached to the false muzzle and the loading bench so you don't so you don't accidently shoot the false muzzle downrange. Second your going to have to learn how to read the wind so you will need 3 or 4 wind flags. I wouldn't spend to much money on them as they tend to get shot up. If you use tight loads a short starter. Would also advise a steel loading rod with a bore protector. Otherwise the equipment is pretty much the same. I always used a spit patch cut at the muzzle.
The target was actually shot with a .45. It liked a .457 ball with a .010 patch and 70 grains of 2fg. The .50 I had liked a .495 ball with a .020 patch and 65 Grains of 3fg. Don't be afraid to try different loads every barrel is different.

Hello ronaldrothb49,

Thank you for the additional information; very good idea on the chain to bench for the false muzzle, that would not be fun.... I'm still reading old post to see what tidbits of wisdom I can pick up.

Best regards,
Montie

You're gonna have a blast shooting your bench gun. I have something similar. Bresien action, green mtn 50 barrel with the olympic redfield target sights.
I'm using .500 round ball and .018 to .020 "dry" patch pillow ticking. 2f 80 to 85 grain seems to be a favorite.
This is from this past weekends range outing. Not bad, the flyer was my fault rushing the shot. 50 yard target.

Hello scottmc71,
Thank you for the load information. If you don't mind posting some pictures of your rifle I would love to see a few more Bresien action based rifles. I have found pictures of roughly a dozen different rifles based on this action.
I am looking forward to punching some holes in paper (hopefully small groups...) with this rifle.

welcome to the forum

Just a quick snap from the bench, usually forget to take a couple pics when I'm out.
A good thing for the false muzzle is something attached to your bench. Or a piece of tubing with a keyring and little bell attached. As to bench shooting I'm still learning as I go. Always a good time though.

Hello Scottmc71,

Very nice setup! I'm just starting to make a shopping list for mine, looking forward to some range time in the future.

scottmc71 said:

Just a quick snap from the bench, usually forget to take a couple pics when I'm out.
A good thing for the false muzzle is something attached to your bench. Or a piece of tubing with a keyring and little bell attached. As to bench shooting I'm still learning as I go. Always a good time though.

Click to expand...

Attaching the false muzzle to the loading bench is actually an NMLRA rule. Used to be you had to have something blocking the sights on your false muzzle, then an idiot managed to shoot his false muzzle down range so they added the rule of attaching the false muzzle to the loading bench. The bell might work if your shooting alone but on a firing wearing hearing protection and having guns going off all around you, don't think that would work.

Nice rifle. bench rest is too easy get down in the dirt and shoot some cross sticks. I really miss that but messed my back up and can't get down and locked into position anymore.

Thank you. I'm in the process of making my cross sticks. That was on my list of things to try this year at our club shoots.

FULLMONTIE said:

Hello All,

I recently purchased what was advertised as a Ron Long underhammer rifle; seller got the rifle in on trade and really did not know anything about the rifle. I have been looking at 80s vintage underhammer rifle pictures, and I have figured out that what I actually have is a Ken Bresien underhammer action with a Ron Long barrel, not sure if Ron assembled the rifle or the original owner.

The barrel is marked Ron Long .502 and the made date in 7/85, and measures 1-1/8" at the breech and 1" at the muzzle. I measured the rifling twist rate last night and it's 1 in 60" twist, so set up for round ball bench shooting I suppose. The rifle came with no sights and I have mounted some target sights that I already had. I need to measure the false muzzle bore, so not sure what size ball and patch the original owner was using.

Do any of you have experience with such a rifle? I'm starting at ground zero equipment wise for this blackpowder rifle, I have a old Lyman lead pot, and roughly a hundred pounds of melted wheel weight (1970-80s wheel weights) ingots. I need powder a powder measure, powder horn, drop tube, ram rod, ball mold, etc.. I did order the Black Powder Rifle Accuracy System by Dutch Schoulz from ebay, which had good reviews here and it should at least offer some good guidlines of where to start on load develepment.

Any advice on good equipment to purchase (or stay away from), and/or where to start on developing loads, ball size, patches, lubes, etc. would be greatly appreciated.

Best regards,
Montie

Click to expand...

First off, that target rifle will perform best with pure lead balls. The wheel weights will cast into much harder balls that will not imprint on the patching. Save the wheel weights for more recreational shooting or hunting where penetration is the desire and the accuracy on target can open up.

The false muzzle will be a bit oversize compared to the bore diameter. The bore diameter is the important measurement. The larger diameter of the false muzzle will allow a near bore sized (probably 0.500"0 ball and a lubricated patch of tight weaving to be easily loaded and not cut at the muzzle by the crown. The second most important measurement is the groove diameter. You want tightly woven patch material that compresses to the groove depth. The false muzzle will aid in the extra compression to smoothly transition the patched ball into the bore. I would suggest that you use 0.018" cotton drill cloth or 0.022" canvas. Look for your patches after shooting to see if there is patch cutting. You may need to adjust the size of the ball or thickness of the patches. If you follow Dutch Schoultz's recommendation of using a dried patch with a mix of water-soluble oil (Ballistol) and water in the 1 to 7 ratio, you will need to wipe between shots. I use a damp patch with that mix of oil and water. This gets complicated as it is way too easy to wipe fouling from the grooves and leave it at the breech to clog up the flash channel. It's less of a problem with an underhammer rifle, but still should be avoided. The loading/wiping jag should be slightly undersized to carry a damp wiping patch over the fouling on the down stroke, but still able to bunch up the damp patch to pull the fouling from the bore. Use a second patch to dry the bore before loading. Consistent bore condition is important when shooting target rifles. The steel working rod with bore protector has been mentioned. The tip of the jag should be contoured to the diameter of the ball to keep the nose of the ball smooth. Develop a loading procedure to seat the ball on the powder. Do not bounce the rod in the ball to seat it as that deforms the ball and deformation is the bane of accuracy on target.

The next step to find the vibration nodes on the rifle to know where to rest the rifle when shooting from a rest. At the vibration node the rifle barrel will move consistently when shooting. Finding the node means the barrel needs to be removed from the action and hung. Using a hard rubber mallet, tap the barrel listening for changes in the tone of the ring. A dull tone means the barrel is not vibrating and you have found a vibration node. mark that for your records.

For target rifles, get the best black powder you can find. At this time, it is Swiss and I would use the 3Fg grade. If black powder is unobtainable, then Triple 7 might be the substitute of choice, but I would prefer Black powder.

You have a fine rifle. Develop the load to make it your most accurate rifle.

Thank you for the replies gentlemen. Thank you for the detailed information Grenadier1758. I'll start off buying some commercial balls and loading equipment, then modify as needed. I just got the Dutch Schoultz book in the mail today.

I didn't see anywhere where you indicated the twist. The round ball information given is great, if indeed it was intended for round balls and not conicals. Heavy bench folks shoot two piece cross patch bullets. the bullets made in two parts from different harness of lead and then swaged together at the bench and they are "Patched" by an x of two strips of paper that has been lubed, usually with ATF.. Check your twist and rifling depth, just in case it is a bullet barrel. Decades ago, I picked up an original muzzle loader Scheutzen rifle made in Austria. (It looked just like the Waadtlander rifle that Pedersoli sells). It didn't have a false muzzle but it did have a special bullet starting attachment that fit the muzzle. It was .11 mm and rifled for a bullet. I shot .423 patched balls out of it, but with anything over 35 grains of powder the accuracy went to heck. I tried some pure lead 433 Remington Spanish Bullets with 60 grains of 3fg and they shot great.

Hello zimmerstuzen,
The twist rate is 1 in 60"; I have not measured the false muzzle counterbore, but I guessing that it is .502 based on the barrel marking. I would like to have some additional barrels for different sports, thinking an over log barrel and a heavy bench barrel shooting proper paper patched bullets. But first, get what I have sorted out.
I do have a real liking for some of the fine European Scheutzen rifles, percussion and cartridge rifles. I missed out on several system Aydt rifles a gentleman was selling at the Houston Guncollectors Show, probably 20 years ago. Elderly gentleman was selling his collection; I still kick myself for not jumping on the opportunity. The workmanship and artistry were pretty spectacular.

FULLMONTIE said:

Hello All,

I recently purchased what was advertised as a Ron Long underhammer rifle; seller got the rifle in on trade and really did not know anything about the rifle. I have been looking at 80s vintage underhammer rifle pictures, and I have figured out that what I actually have is a Ken Bresien underhammer action with a Ron Long barrel, not sure if Ron assembled the rifle or the original owner.

The barrel is marked Ron Long .502 and the made date in 7/85, and measures 1-1/8" at the breech and 1" at the muzzle. I measured the rifling twist rate last night and it's 1 in 60" twist, so set up for round ball bench shooting I suppose. The rifle came with no sights and I have mounted some target sights that I already had. I need to measure the false muzzle bore, so not sure what size ball and patch the original owner was using.

Do any of you have experience with such a rifle? I'm starting at ground zero equipment wise for this blackpowder rifle, I have a old Lyman lead pot, and roughly a hundred pounds of melted wheel weight (1970-80s wheel weights) ingots. I need powder a powder measure, powder horn, drop tube, ram rod, ball mold, etc.. I did order the Black Powder Rifle Accuracy System by Dutch Schoulz from ebay, which had good reviews here and it should at least offer some good guidlines of where to start on load develepment.

Any advice on good equipment to purchase (or stay away from), and/or where to start on developing loads, ball size, patches, lubes, etc. would be greatly appreciated.

Best regards,
Montie

Click to expand...

Bench gun shooting was my thing in the early 1980's. Shot in Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Mississippi and Arkansas ( loved the matches in Berryville Ark. and the ones in Brady Texas. Had several Bresiens- great guns. For what it's worth, my favorite was Fat Alice - a 63 pound H&H barreled .577 gun. I shot .595 balls with .020 Web Terry Teflon patching. Oversize worked well. Was not aware that Ron made barrels but I bet it is a good one. Certainly clean between shots. Build a good bench. I used chains to tie it down to the ground. Wing flags every 10-15 yards. Helpful hint - I learned a lot from books about Harry Pope. In teh picture below is an early style starter. I used a drop tube for putting powder in the barrel so nothing would stick to the sides. Before a match, at home, I would weight every ball and group them to use that weekend. A little thing at the bench can throw you out of the X at 100 - why take the chance. I often went overboard with things such as ramrods. Always stainless steel, one had a stop block so the ball stopped short of the powder by just a little. One had a pressure gage built in. No patch knife - razor blades. Most over the top. A razor blade clamped to a protected spot on the bench. Lightly scrape my trigger finger over it. Best of luck and have fun. Get hooked up with the Texas Muzzleloading Rifle Association in Brady. Good folks

Scott Somers said:

Bench gun shooting was my thing in the early 1980's. Shot in Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Mississippi and Arkansas ( loved the matches in Berryville Ark. and the ones in Brady Texas. Had several Bresiens- great guns. For what it's worth, my favorite was Fat Alice - a 63 pound H&H barreled .577 gun. I shot .595 balls with .020 Web Terry Teflon patching. Oversize worked well. Was not aware that Ron made barrels but I bet it is a good one. Certainly clean between shots. Build a good bench. I used chains to tie it down to the ground. Wing flags every 10-15 yards. Helpful hint - I learned a lot from books about Harry Pope. In teh picture below is an early style starter. I used a drop tube for putting powder in the barrel so nothing would stick to the sides. Before a match, at home, I would weight every ball and group them to use that weekend. A little thing at the bench can throw you out of the X at 100 - why take the chance. I often went overboard with things such as ramrods. Always stainless steel, one had a stop block so the ball stopped short of the powder by just a little. One had a pressure gage built in. No patch knife - razor blades. Most over the top. A razor blade clamped to a protected spot on the bench. Lightly scrape my trigger finger over it. Best of luck and have fun. Get hooked up with the Texas Muzzleloading Rifle Association in Brady. Good folks

Click to expand...

You also mentioned a bench. Here is the one I used in the 80's ( the gun on it is a fullstock Lancaster flint bench with a Bill Large barrel.) I think teh base was 3 pieces of 3/4" plywood, legs were 1 1/2" or 2" steel pipe with spider extensions. Three of the legs were closed by large pipe capes and the 4th had a 1.5" "bolt to adjust when the ground was not flat. The platform was 2" oak with a 1/2" milled steel plate on top. The next stage was bolting a large eyebolt toward the front and another to the back and running a chain with a turnbuckle to the large coarse screw things that they - unfortunately - use in animal tie downs. Once rigged up - about 30 minutes - it is SOLID, level with the target and heavy - no vibrations at all. Most of my bench guns at a skid bar for use on the front rest. Fat Alice used dual 2" cam followers on a 1.5" round bar. Yes. my cars had air shocks on the back.

Scott Somers said:

You also mentioned a bench. Here is the one I used in the 80's ( the gun on it is a fullstock Lancaster flint bench with a Bill Large barrel.) I think teh base was 3 pieces of 3/4" plywood, legs were 1 1/2" or 2" steel pipe with spider extensions. Three of the legs were closed by large pipe capes and the 4th had a 1.5" "bolt to adjust when the ground was not flat. The platform was 2" oak with a 1/2" milled steel plate on top. The next stage was bolting a large eyebolt toward the front and another to the back and running a chain with a turnbuckle to the large coarse screw things that they - unfortunately - use in animal tie downs. Once rigged up - about 30 minutes - it is SOLID, level with the target and heavy - no vibrations at all. Most of my bench guns at a skid bar for use on the front rest. Fat Alice used dual 2" cam followers on a 1.5" round bar. Yes. my cars had air shocks on the back.

Click to expand...

I like it. Still have it? Should say still have both?

scottmc71 said:

I like it. Still have it? Should say still have both?

Click to expand...

Still have Fat Alice but got rid of the bench. The gun was 63 pounds, I think the bench was heavier. In the picture that is my short starter. Thank you, Harry Pope