Frustrated - Hopefully just the growing pains of a newbie

So this past weekend, I went out and shot the .58 cal Ardessa muzzleloader. After the first shot, it was extremely difficult to load and I only fired a few. This led me to determine that I obviously needed to give it a really good cleaning.
I didn't have my cleaning supplies in yet, so I took my shotgun cleaning kit and ran a couple patches with Ballistol, followed by a few dry patches, then repeated. I figured that would get the bulk of the fouling out until my order came in from TOTW.


So, today my Creedmoor cleaning rod and jags came in, along with some 2.5" cleaning patches.
I screw on the .58 caliber jag and have trouble getting the first Ballistol soaked patch down the barrel. It finally goes and I run it down and pull it back up to find that the end of the jag has punched through the patch. Tried again with a new patch, same result.
So I decided to try the .54 caliber jag so it would have more room for the patch. I again ran a Ballistol soaked patch down the bore and back up. Then a dry patch. It's still in there. The patch and the jag. My brand new Creedmoor rod is stuck down the barrel of my rifle. It's stuck about 2-3 inches from the bottom. I gave it all I have (and I'm not a small guy) and can't budge it. I can push it back down to the bottom, but can't get it back out.
I've read a thread on here about the same topic, and I'll try some of the things suggested like tying the rod to a tree and pulling on the rifle. That will probably get it out.

But I'm beyond frustrated. From the first outing going terribly due to having to hammer the last ball down the bore to get it to seat, to now I have a damn rod stuck in the bore.
Maybe I should just stick to the shotgun cleaning rod with a little larger patch.

I went and bought some Scotchbrite pads to cut into squares and try to polish the bore since it was so hard to load, but if it's getting a patch stuck, how in the world is that gonna work?

We have a muzzleloader shop local. I may just pay him to give it a good thorough cleaning, as un-manly as that sounds.

Sorry for the whiny rant. I know these newbie problems aren't unique to me.

If you got a mounted bench vise, clamp the rod in the vise and pull on the gun, she should come out.

if you can get the rod screwed back on the jag, do so and then pour some windex or even some ballistol down on top of the jag and patch. 2-3 inches from the breach is where a crud ring develops. let the windex or whatever work for a while. if you have a vise clamp the rod into it and then pull on the rifle or the barrel if you have it dismounted.

if your patches are large they will fold behind the jag and bunch up. soak it and it should come out.
or send it to me and i will remove it for you. and return it in a year or two.

deerstalkert said:

if you can get the rod screwed back on the jag, do so and then pour some windex or even some ballistol down on top of the jag and patch. 2-3 inches from the breach is where a crud ring develops. let the windex or whatever work for a while. if you have a vise clamp the rod into it and then pull on the rifle or the barrel if you have it dismounted.

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The rod is still attached, thankfully.
I think the patches may be too big for using a jag. The claim was they are suitable for .50-.75 caliber, so they're pretty large.
I'll pour some Ballistol or maybe some olive oil down the barrel, and give it a whirl with a vise or tied off to something solid.

Thanks for the replies.

both of those are good. I have found windex to dissolve carbon on contact. may i ask what powder you are using? pyrodex and 777 create a different crud ring than holy black.
i have found that a good organic lube, and lots of it, will prevent the ring in most barrels. i have one with some pitting that creates a ring that needs a hammer to get the load and patched ball past unless i swab every shot with windex or alcohol.
when you get it cleared i would suggest finding someone with a bore scope and have a look see. then you can attack the problem with the right tools.

deerstalkert said:

may i ask what powder you are using?

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2f Schuetzen
But this rifle is new to me. It sat in my father's closet for 15-20 years without being shot.
I have no idea what the person that he got it from used back then.

You may want find someone nearby that shoots traditional blackpowder guns and get some one on one experience. Taking it to a gunsmith to unstick things and clean the gun is a mistake in my opinion. You get it back and will be right where you were before you fired your first shot.

As others have suggested a smaller cleaning patch to start is a good idea. As far as jag to patch fit, old rule of thumb was in a clean barrel two clean dry patches on your jag should go down the bore with little more than the weigh of the ramrod pushing. Then after shooting, you will clean with one patch on the jag. You may want to consider reducing the size of your jag, no matter what caliber the package says it is.

Arkansas Paul said:

2f Schuetzen
But this rifle is new to me. It sat in my father's closet for 15-20 years without being shot.
I have no idea what the person that he got it from used back then.

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being Black powder, water is your friend.

From the for-what-it’s-worth department…I’ve had very little coaching except lots of videos and trial and error. The only time I’ve got patches stuck is when I’ve been at the range and just wanted to swab the bore between shots. I quickly learned to use a very thin and/or very small patch with moose milk to avoid jamming.

At home I always start cleaning by running water through the barrel with the nipple removed and even turning the barrel upside down when it’s full of water to dump out as much crud as possible. I then scrub with a nylon brush and run more water until it runs out clear. Only then do I put Ballistol soaked patches down the bore for final cleaning. I’ve never got one stuck this way.

Keep trying and don’t give up!

Here's one option. Soak bore , then get a section of 2x4 about 12" long. Drill hole in center slightly larger than ramrod diameter. Remove ram rod handle and slide 2x4 over rod and rest on muzzle. Clamp end of rod in vice tightly. With 2x4 resting on muzzle have a buddy help and each of you hit the 2x4 with hammers at the same time to drive the barrel away from the rod. Even steady whacks , don't go nuts.

Is the bore pitted ? a pitted bore can really bite onto a patch.

Good luck and hang in there.

I think if he puts some low viscosity lube down the barrel and lets the patch soak for a minute or two he will find it will pull out.

WD40 or Kroil comes to mind.

Edit, it also sounds like your patch/ball combination is to tight JMHO

Oh yeah! This here is only growing pains .

One thing that you may be dealing with is not knowing what may have been in the bottom of the barrel to begin with. IOW, what may have been there when it went into the closet. If it was put away without proper cleaning it could be some serious corrosion issues. Or it may have been well cleaned and put away with a whole lot of oil that formed into a crud deposit over time.

Either way, the rod has to come out and the tie it to a tree is probably the solution to go straight to. It should come out. If not it will need to be de breeched to get it out by pushing it through. That may be simple or complicated depending on how it's breached. I think it's coming out with the help of the tree.

Once it's out you can plug the nipple (use a vacuum line stopper sold in auto parts stores) and fill the barrel with boiling hot water. Let it sit for a good while and pour the water out. If it comes out super dirty, that's a good sign that you are getting there. Then clean it again with hot water. If the barrel is removable, remove the nipple and immerse the breech In a good sized container of hot water and proceed to pump water in and out using a jag and patch. Don't just shove it all the way down. Go with short in and out jabs working your way gradually. If it becomes harder to pull the rod up then slow down. Do that until you bottom out.

Don't hit the bottom too hard. Your experience with the patch being cut out in a circle is happening when the jag encounters the face of the breech plug. Sharp edges on the face of the jag can be the cause. Take some of that edge off. If after plenty of pumping your jag is still hard to move down in the bottom you may have rough conditions from corrosion.

Okay, first, your cleaning jag cannot be the same size as the bore size or you will do just what you did.
Second. Never run a dry patch down a fouled barrel.
Third. Find the Duelist1854 video on YouTube about how to smooth out a new barrel with scotchbright-type pads.
Fourth. Make some Moosemilk. You will find the recipe on here somewhere. Just use the search feature here. Moosemilk is great for cleaning and always run a wet patch down a fouled barrel.
Fifth. Don't get discouraged. What you did is exactly how a lot of us learned without having a mentor on how to shoot BP.
Sixth. Now that you know that, get ready for dry balls. I'll let you look that one up.
Finally, seventh. now that you know this, have fun in your new hobby/obsession. We do. Also, most all answers for your questions are here on the forum already.

The Doc is out now and you will get my bill.

Longcruise, gives good council!
“Don't just shove it all the way down. Go with short in and out jabs working your way gradually. “
I always start with straight water to get the bulk of the fowling out then you could use any of the new wave concoctions if you like. Nothing cuts black powder fowling better then water and its nearly always available.

It couldn't have been stated better that water is your friend when it comes to black powder. I shoot a lot, both my 40 and 54 flinters. And it always amazes me, when my locks are dirty and full of burnt black powder residue after a day of shooting, how quickly they clean up with tap tepid to cool tap water. Literally with a toothbrush, water and 5 minutes of time, they are sparkly clean.

Burnt black powder and petroleum oil make sludge.
You have a sludge factory. Water under the bridge.

Any water based soap down the barrel and through the touch hole.
We use a rubber tipped nozzle and 160lb of compressed air.

If you can still push it to the bottom, pull it up till it stops and put some moose milk, windex or some crud buster maybe 1/2 or 1 ounce and let it soak a few minutes. Now start working it up and down at the bottom of the barrel. With luck each time you pull it up it will move a tiny bit further up until it breaks free of the crud ring.
Phil

Thanks a lot for the replies. A lot of valuable information in this thread for newbies.

Thankfully I have fixed the problem. I poured a good amount of Windex into the barrel and let it set for just a few minutes. I then pushed the ramrod gently to the bottom and it pulled right out, along with an outpouring of dirty liquid.
After that, I ran at least 10-15 patches with Ballistol down the barrel, followed by dry patches.

I've got it pretty clean now. It was very dirty, much more so than it should have been from firing 4 or 5 shots. No telling how dirty that thing was already.
But I'm on the right track now. I ordered a .50 cal jag. I'm going to try and use it with the Scotchbrite pads.

Arkansas Paul said:

Thanks a lot for the replies. A lot of valuable information in this thread for newbies.

Thankfully I have fixed the problem. I poured a good amount of Windex into the barrel and let it set for just a few minutes. I then pushed the ramrod gently to the bottom and it pulled right out, along with an outpouring of dirty liquid.
After that, I ran at least 10-15 patches with Ballistol down the barrel, followed by dry patches.

I've got it pretty clean now. It was very dirty, much more so than it should have been from firing 4 or 5 shots. No telling how dirty that thing was already.
But I'm on the right track now. I ordered a .50 cal jag. I'm going to try and use it with the Scotchbrite pads.

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Awesome, stay with it -
It does get much easier and funner as you gain some experience