BLOWN OUT PATCH'S

Big Tom 52 · Jun 11, 2024

I got some shooting in this morning, I'm shooting 45 caliber T/C Cherokee, 1x48 twist, 65 grains 2F Goex, .015 ox yoke patch material lubed with moose milk 7-1 water/Ballistol , 12mm dia. OPW punched out of the veg material from Buffalo arms. .445 round ball. The first two shots on the lower right and the in the top 9 ring were from a couple cut cotton shirts patches that I lubed with blakemore reel magic just to see if it would work. Then I went to the ox yoke patch for the last four shots. The group is good, but the patches were totally shredded. I've been using these patches for a while and they been cut when I didn't use opw but never blown out like this. BTW, I couldn't find the first patches I used, just a few pieces. Could it be the opw didn't seat level on the powder? 45 caliber but the wads were 12mm.dia. I swabbed the barrel every 3rd or 4th shot with a wet soapy dawn liquid soap patch when it got hard to load. then dry patches to dry.

Pete G · Jun 12, 2024

You need thicker patch material.

#BPBReloadingFFL · Jun 12, 2024

Your to inconsistent . To many lubes, patches,wet mop with dish soap now and then.

Grenadier1758 · Jun 12, 2024

The T/C rifles, such as @Big Tom 52's Cherokee, have very shallow rifling. The 0.445" ball in the 0.015" thick patch is getting cut as the patching is over compressed during loading. A switch to a 0.440" ball and 0.015" thick patch will still have enough compression to grip the ball and not be cut on the lands or at the muzzle. Your patches are consistent with being cut by the lands and the gas blow by shreds the patches.

M. De Land · Jun 12, 2024

Big Tom 52 said:
I got some shooting in this morning, I'm shooting 45 caliber T/C Cherokee, 1x48 twist, 65 grains 2F Goex, .015 ox yoke patch material lubed with moose milk 7-1 water/Ballistol , 12mm dia. OPW punched out of the veg material from Buffalo arms. .445 round ball. The first two shots on the lower right and the in the top 9 ring were from a couple cut cotton shirts patches that I lubed with blakemore reel magic just to see if it would work. Then I went to the ox yoke patch for the last four shots. The group is good, but the patches were totally shredded. I've been using these patches for a while and they been cut when I didn't use opw but never blown out like this. BTW, I couldn't find the first patches I used, just a few pieces. Could it be the opw didn't seat level on the powder? 45 caliber but the wads were 12mm.dia. I swabbed the barrel every 3rd or 4th shot with a wet soapy dawn liquid soap patch when it got hard to load. then dry patches to dry.

You need to study your recovered patches. They will tell the story of what you need to adjust in your load or barrel. Show us some pictures of recovered patches and we can help with that. Many times a new barrel will have burrs and will shred patches in an other wise good load. A shredded or even holed patch will not deliver an accurate ball.

Big Tom 52 · Jun 12, 2024

Thanks gentlemen. I appreciate your advice!

M. De Land said:
You need to study your recovered patches. They will tell the story of what you need to adjust in your load or barrel. Show us some pictures of recovered patches and we can help with that. Many times a new barrel will have burrs and will shred patches in an other wise good load. A shredded or even holed patch will not deliver an accurate ball.

the first Pic of the target has what's left of the patches There's not much left!

M. De Land · Jun 12, 2024

M. De Land said:
You need to study your recovered patches. They will tell the story of what you need to adjust in your load or barrel. Show us some pictures of recovered patches and we can help with that.

M. De Land said:
You need to study your recovered patches. They will tell the story of what you need to adjust in your load or barrel. Show us some pictures of recovered patches and we can help with that. Many times a new barrel will have burrs and will shred patches in an other wise good load. A shredded or even holed patch will not deliver an accurate ball.

Ooops , sorry I didn't catch the patches on the second photo ! I use tight weave cotton shirt felt from old work shirts .018 thick. It's one of the best materials for patches I have ever used after trying denum, drill, pillow ticking and what have you.
I usually start with a good barrel lapping to get rid of any rifling burrs. The patch material should be thick enough to leave the patch material imprint on the ball both from land and groove not just the land. This will insure a gas seal and if the patch is recovered in tact with no burn through hole or is shredded.

oldwood · Jun 12, 2024

Also.....the powder charge "sweet spot " for a .45 cal w/ a 1 turn in 60" twist , is 60 gr. fffg. Using a 1 in 48" twist should be less powder . Your muzzle crown may be too sharp cutting patches , and standard ball size will be .440 RB. If you have access to a compression micrometer , check the real thickness of your patch material , should be about .012 to no more than .015 thick. Best to not use "tee shirt cotton " material for patching , also , use pure cotton muslin. Gave you a bunch of suggestions here. LOL

longcruise · Jun 12, 2024

Big Tom 52 said:
I got some shooting in this morning, I'm shooting 45 caliber T/C Cherokee, 1x48 twist, 65 grains 2F Goex, .015 ox yoke patch material lubed with moose milk 7-1 water/Ballistol , 12mm dia. OPW punched out of the veg material from Buffalo arms. .445 round ball. The first two shots on the lower right and the in the top 9 ring were from a couple cut cotton shirts patches that I lubed with blakemore reel magic just to see if it would work. Then I went to the ox yoke patch for the last four shots. The group is good, but the patches were totally shredded. I've been using these patches for a while and they been cut when I didn't use opw but never blown out like this. BTW, I couldn't find the first patches I used, just a few pieces. Could it be the opw didn't seat level on the powder? 45 caliber but the wads were 12mm.dia. I swabbed the barrel every 3rd or 4th shot with a wet soapy dawn liquid soap patch when it got hard to load. then dry patches to dry.

My TC 45 (not Cherokee) thrives on 445 and 018 patches. I think #1, patches are too thin, #2 as per @M. De Land your bore needs smoothing and #3 your muzzle may be damaging the patch at loading.

#4 This is the last time I will ever respond to a shredded patch topic...... and THIS TIME I MEAN IT.

M. De Land · Jun 12, 2024

longcruise said:
My TC 45 (not Cherokee) thrives on 445 and 018 patches. I think #1, patches are too thin, #2 as per @M. De Land your bore needs smoothing and #3 your muzzle may be damaging the patch at loading.

#4 This is the last time I will ever respond to a shredded patch topic...... and THIS TIME I MEAN IT.

Yeah, both my .45 cal match guns ( one flint the other underhammer percussion) with 1-60 pitch like the same ball diameter and patch thickness with a 65 grain charge of 3F.

rich pierce · Jun 13, 2024

Grenadier1758 said:
The T/C rifles, such as @Big Tom 52's Cherokee, have very shallow rifling. The 0.445" ball in the 0.015" thick patch is getting cut as the patching is over compressed during loading. A switch to a 0.440" ball and 0.015" thick patch will still have enough compression to grip the ball and not be cut on the lands or at the muzzle. Your patches are consistent with being cut buy the lands and the gas blow by shreds the atches.

I’d go with this for advice.

Big Tom 52 · Jun 13, 2024

longcruise said:
My TC 45 (not Cherokee) thrives on 445 and 018 patches. I think #1, patches are too thin, #2 as per @M. De Land your bore needs smoothing and #3 your muzzle may be damaging the patch at loading.

#4 This is the last time I will ever respond to a shredded patch topic...... and THIS TIME I MEAN IT.

Thanks Longcruise! I really do appreciate your and all the other members advice!

A lot of good advice to go over before my next trip to the range!

Shortfingers · Jun 13, 2024

Grenadier1758 said:
The T/C rifles, such as @Big Tom 52's Cherokee, have very shallow rifling. The 0.445" ball in the 0.015" thick patch is getting cut as the patching is over compressed during loading. A switch to a 0.440" ball and 0.015" thick patch will still have enough compression to grip the ball and not be cut on the lands or at the muzzle. Your patches are consistent with being cut by the lands and the gas blow by shreds the patches.

Great answer…..I totally agree…..

M. De Land · Jun 13, 2024

Big Tom 52 said:
Thanks Longcruise! I really do appreciate your and all the other members advice! A lot of good advice to go over before my next trip to the range!

I'd seat a patched ball as you normally do (purposely dry ball) pull it and see if the patch is muzzle cut or land cut. I don't think the rifling in a TC barrel is deep enough to cut a .015 patch so it must either be muzzle crown cut or gas blow by. My guess is the later.

Big Tom 52 · Jun 14, 2024

I'm thinking it the gas blow and I'm pretty sure I know why. I changed a couple things from the last time I was shooting, trying to get a tighter group. I jot down everything I do at the range so I'm going to go back to the same powder charge and patch and ball as before and check the patches and go from there. I'm thinking gas blow from the looks of the patches I found.

ETipp · Jun 15, 2024

If you run a larger (tighter) but thinner cleaning patch down the bore it will most likely get cut if there’s sharp edges in the bore, at least farther down.

My guess is the most likely cause would be due to the shooting patch’s being either too thin or you need to adjust your powder charge.

Also, and this is a fact considering I just went through this last week, sometimes patches can look pretty darn bad but the accuracy can still be there. I am not referring to the edges being frayed. Rather, some of them being a little separated.

Of course we all want perfect looking retrieved patches.

Good luck on your search.

M. De Land · Jun 15, 2024

ETipp said:
If you run a larger (tighter) but thinner cleaning patch down the bore it will most likely get cut if there’s sharp edges in the bore, at least farther down.

My guess is the most likely cause would be due to the shooting patch’s being either too thin or you need to adjust your powder charge.

Also, and this is a fact considering I just went through this last week, sometimes patches can look pretty darn bad but the accuracy can still be there. I am not referring to the edges being frayed. Rather, some of them being a little separated.

Of course we all want perfect looking retrieved patches.

Good luck on your search.

That is true that a ball will sometimes stay in a group with a less than perfect patch but I'm quite sure that blown patches are more often than not responsible for the fliers and the shot sent with a blown patch that stayed in the group was more a matter of wibbles compensating for wobbles when being fired.
What drives me nuts is to call the shot with perfect alignment at the trigger break that is a flier. That is when it's time to search for a patch that looks much differently then it's companions.
This is one of the main reasons one should learn to call their shots and pretty much be able to predict the score it will make before actually seeing the hole.

ETipp · Jun 15, 2024

Good post, MD.

I agree with your thoughts on fliers and deficient patches. This was learned the hard way just recently, unbeknown by me.

Big Tom 52 · Jun 16, 2024

I used the oversize patch and it was definitely snug. No small cut that I could find, and I looked close. I removed the barrel from the stock and scrubbed it with hot water and dawn liquid. Dried the inside and used JB bore clean and when finished with that, as directions, used JB bore bright. finished with a wet patch of ballistol, put a few patches over the muzzle to catch any ballistol that may run out. I'll go back to .440 RBs, going to start with a 50-grain load. I have OX Yoke precut, pre lubed .015 and .010 patches. The oversize patch showed that I wasn't getting the barrel as clean as I thought I was! I agree that adjusting my powder charge is one issue and I think I know what else I was doing that contributed to the blowouts. I'll know for sure my next trip to the range. Thanks for everyone's help

ETipp said:
If you run a larger (tighter) but thinner cleaning patch down the bore it will most likely get cut if there’s sharp edges in the bore, at least farther down.

My guess is the most likely cause would be due to the shooting patch’s being either too thin or you need to adjust your powder charge.

Also, and this is a fact considering I just went through this last week, sometimes patches can look pretty darn bad but the accuracy can still be there. I am not referring to the edges being frayed. Rather, some of them being a little separated.

Of course we all want perfect looking retrieved patches.

Good luck on your search.

Larry (Omaha) · Jun 16, 2024

Big Tom 52 said:
I'm thinking it the gas blow and I'm pretty sure I know why. I changed a couple things from the last time I was shooting, trying to get a tighter group. I jot down everything I do at the range so I'm going to go back to the same powder charge and patch and ball as before and check the patches and go from there. I'm thinking gas blow from the looks of the patches I found.

The gas is blowing by because the patch is getting cut by the lands.
.440 ball with .015 or .018 cotton patch.
Larry

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