New to me Colt Baby Dragoon Gen 2

Gino753 · Jun 25, 2024

45D said:
Well, those aren't cracks. That "U" shaped "crack" is what you see of the arbor (no "U") which is screwed in. The round hole above it is what you see of the "staking pin" to lock the arbor. The staking pin has a staking mark across it as well. Absolutely nothing wrong there.
The hand's are cut from steel ( no "pot metal" to be found in an Uberti or Pietta. You just need to learn WHAT you're looking at.
Your 2nd Gen Colt's have ( typical) '70's action parts and Uberti's parts are closer to the originals . . . just better. I'm not knocking the 2nd Gens . . . they are what they are (complete with short arbors just like all reproductions till Pietta fixed theirs). That said, they can be made to better the originals. I'll be posting a pictorial post of that process using Dickydalton's Commemorative '51 (with a couple of it's bench buddies).

Mike

Yeah, soo I actually do know what I’m looking at…undernieth those splits or whatever…that you can’t see in the photos is an actual hairline fracture, most likely from the process,..

Ive seen a few other ones, and there was no split over the peen hole…also did you see towards the right side of that hole? There is another crack in the corner…why would that be there?

Then undernieth that all..there is a hairline fracture, that is “U” Shaped, and wavy

Gino753 · Jun 25, 2024

I was not talking about the staking pin, there is a Crack on the right side of the frame, and undernieth that center Arbour pin…you cant see it in the pics,..but I assumed that it was an error in the hardening process, and as the pin was punched, the shock cracked the frame

45D · Jun 25, 2024

You mean like these cracks?

That's what a threaded arbor looks like in a threaded hole in the frame after it's contoured. The top hole is the staking pin.

Like I said . . . ya gotta know what you're looking for before you can see it.

Mike

Gino753 · Jun 25, 2024

45D said:
You mean like these cracks?

View attachment 330061

That's what a threaded arbor looks like in a threaded hole in the frame after it's contoured. The top hole is the staking pin.

Like I said . . . ya gotta know what you're looking for before you can see it.

Mike

So that’s normal? If so then I stand corrected…However the hammer still would only cock back half way, and get stuck due to burrs on the inside of the hammer slot sticking out and digging into it

Also,my Dragoon is not soo much, as obvious as that…yours , or that pic looks almost purposed…where’s the one I had , seemed out of place…i dont know…I guess I don’t know what I’m looking at with these, but I felt concearn
And the hand, felt really light, and was all ground up , as it rubbed against the arbour…the hand was jamming up against it causing the gun to not cycle

45D · Jun 25, 2024

Gino753 said:
So that’s normal? If so then I stand corrected…However the hammer still would only cock back half way, and get stuck due to burrs on the inside of the hammer slot sticking out and digging into it

Also,my Dragoon is not soo much, as obvious as that…yours , or that pic looks almost purposed…where’s the one I had , seemed out of place…i dont know…I guess I don’t know what I’m looking at with these, but I felt concearn
And the hand, felt really light, and was all ground up , as it rubbed against the arbour…the hand was jamming up against it causing the gun to not cycle

Yes, that's normal but not always that noticeable. That was the best for a pic of a pair I'm working on. It shows better the lines you were seeing just part of. Didn't mean to sound so "know it all" but now you can see it's a rod screwed into block with a contoured hole.

The originals had a relief cut so the hand wouldn't contact the arbor. When I have to tighten or reinstall an arbor, I'll grind a relief in it.

Mike

Gino753 · Jun 25, 2024

45D said:
Yes, that's normal but not always that noticeable. That was the best for a pic of a pair I'm working on. It shows better the lines you were seeing just part of. Didn't mean to sound so "know it all" but now you can see it's a rod screwed into block with a contoured hole.

The originals had a relief cut so the hand wouldn't contact the arbor. When I have to tighten or reinstall an arbor, I'll grind a relief in it.

Mike

Soo,..I just got my LTC, so I started buying pieces. I always wanted, and like any hobby once I go in, I go extreme

Soo, i am willing to learn anything you care to tell me.

With that said…My Second Gen Colt Dragoon, apparently has a short Arbour as well?

I read that it’s a hit or miss thing, in that some do and some don’t, and that the Arbour is just long enough to add support between the barrel and frame I assume

Cutting or grinding the Arbour shorter , seems to be a mass assembly type thing…in that , it’s much easier to make the Arbour shorter, and then the barrel can just slide on untill it stops against the front of the frame, and locks into the pins, rather that have to painstakingly, grind down the tip of the Arbour so it’s just long enough, for the barrel to slide on, and bottom out against the tip of the arbour..then against the frame

Allowing for 2 points of support, instead of just one.In the short arbour..

Im surprised that the second gen, colts would be that way..but…

Gino753 · Jun 26, 2024

So , looking over this Uberti Whitneyville Dragoon, that im sending back, I decided to check the Arbour length, and it is actually on the long side…With the barrel slid all the way down, there is still a small gap between the barrel…Would this be considerd a positive? Since I assume the tip of the Arbour could be machined-Filed down to fit like it’s supposed too?

45D · Jun 26, 2024

Gino753 said:
So , looking over this Uberti Whitneyville Dragoon, that im sending back, I decided to check the Arbour length, and it is actually on the long side…With the barrel slid all the way down, there is still a small gap between the barrel…Would this be considerd a positive? Since I assume the tip of the Arbour could be machined-Filed down to fit like it’s supposed too?

No, the arbor (a-r-b-o-r) is short. Drive the wedge in further and it will lock up the cylinder. I'm sure there was no gap between the frame and barrel lug when you bought it.
If you're trying to do the "90° and swing the barrel down" test forget it, it doesn't work. That's the most ignorant thing anyone has ever said about deciphering whether the arbor is short or not. The broaching process "keys" (distorts) the material and the result is installation only happens with correct orientation of the parts. Of course, you can dress the arbor enough to allow the test to be done . . . what you'll find is the arbor is still short, and NOW the arbor is smaller in diameter!!! . . . just to satisfy a stupid test!!!! I'd rather retain as much arbor material as I can than perform a silly test.
Unless you just need the money, I'd suggest keeping the Whitneyville. The Dragoon series is definitely a favorite of mine . . . heck, that's where "Goon" comes from!!

Mike

Gino753 · Jun 26, 2024

Gino753 said:
Exactly,..growing up with a Master machinist showed me that.My dad would get half finished parts from other machinists that might not have had a certain tool to finish the project, that my dad invested in,…even being a small business, and the other way around.

In this situation, an Italian company started making these Pieces, before Colt decided to due there special Rerun, so it makes sense

Also..Uberti does make Beautiful parts…im just upset that my Whitneyville Dragoon, arrived absolutely beautiful on the outside, however when I went to cock the hammer, it felt really rough and was being caught by a Burr that dug a groove on the side of the hammer.Then i found these cracks behind the hammer on the frame.There is a Hairline “U” Shaped crack undernieth as well that you have to look up close to see.The internal parts were all mashed up as well.The hand seemed to be made from Pot metal and was all ground up, and mashed , from rubbing against the Arbour …

Anyway,..it’s going back and i add another $500 and grab another Second Gen Colt Dragoon, im sure im overpaying but …not by much

I wanted to update this post.As i have just started Buying these pieces, and getting heavily into them,

I did not realize that this is apparently normal…these crack marks behind the trigger on the frame, are apparently the Arbour Showing through? And this frame is normal.

I just don’t want to project false information, although , this Dragoon does have other issues, like the Hand being chewed up as it rubs against the Arbour..etc…There we’re Burrs in the trigger slot, witch have scraped the left side of the hammer pretty heavily.

Otherwise the overall build, on the outside, is very good

I did, Go and buy a Second Gen “F” Series Colt 3rd Dragoon however, soo it’s hard letting this go, as well as keeping it, since I have the F series coming, and could use this return to buy a Walker??

Dickydalton · Jun 26, 2024

This Uberti Whitneyville had a short arbor before Mike fixed it and other things!

Gino753 · Jun 26, 2024

dickydalton said:
This Uberti Whitneyville had a short arbor before Mike fixed it and other things!
View attachment 330203

Yes, i didnt take into account that the Arbor is taperd, so when I tried fitting the barrel on without a cylinder, and it stopped, prematurely,..I got excited for a second.

It was late, and I work from 2pm, to 1AM is when I attempted this

Gino753 · Jun 29, 2024

45D said:
You mean like these cracks?

View attachment 330061

That's what a threaded arbor looks like in a threaded hole in the frame after it's contoured. The top hole is the staking pin.

Like I said . . . ya gotta know what you're looking for before you can see it.

Mike

Ok, So my 1978 Colt “F” Series 3RD Model Dragoon, came in yesturday.It is absolutely beautifully made.I was able to get it apart,to clean it a bit, as it had some hard chunks of black gritty grease, between the nipples..etc…in my machine shop.

I then , checked the Arbor fit.I noticed that there was a noticeable, “Thud” as soon as the barrel, was just about on, all the way..leaving a gap maby 0.007-0.008
Between the bottom part of the barrel block and the bottom part of the frame front block, as the 2 pins smoothly inserted into the barrel block.

It appeared , that the tip of the Arbor was in fact bottoming out in the hole in the barrel.I then gently painted the inside bottom of the hole in the barrel, with an marking agent,and again installed the barrel,and drove the wedge in.When i removed the barrel, the tip and or face of the arbor, was marked..as the tip of the arbor seemed to have made contact with the bottom of the bore.
I will check some more, but it appears that either the machinest, tried to correct and or fit this barrel to, its frame and arbor correctly as the old 1st, gens were.Or..the Arbor,is longer on this model.Versus the Uberti that I had.

It does look like the tip of this arbor, does have more meat, hanging off of it, where the wedge slot ends, going towards the tip of the barrel, as it seems noticeable

45D · Jun 29, 2024

Gino753 said:
Ok, So my 1978 Colt “F” Series 3RD Model Dragoon, came in yesturday.It is absolutely beautifully made.I was able to get it apart,to clean it a bit, as it had some hard chunks of black gritty grease, between the nipples..etc…in my machine shop.

I then , checked the Arbor fit.I noticed that there was a noticeable, “Thud” as soon as the barrel, was just about on, all the way..leaving a gap maby 0.007-0.008
Between the bottom part of the barrel block and the bottom part of the frame front block, as the 2 pins smoothly inserted into the barrel block.

It appeared , that the tip of the Arbor was in fact bottoming out in the hole in the barrel.I then gently painted the inside bottom of the hole in the barrel, with an marking agent,and again installed the barrel,and drove the wedge in.When i removed the barrel, the tip and or face of the arbor, was marked..as the tip of the arbor seemed to have made contact with the bottom of the bore.
I will check some more, but it appears that either the machinest, tried to correct and or fit this barrel to, its frame and arbor correct..or the is longer on this model.Versus the Uberti that I had.

Anything is possible, especially if someone has already corrected it (maybe a pic or two?).
Here's what short arbors look like when installed. It just so happens that since I'm working on Dickydalton's 2nd Gen, they almost always have a "broken through" arbor hole (originals don't). So, you can see the arbor / arbor hole relationship.

This is with the wedge driven all the way in.

Mike

Gino753 · Jun 29, 2024

45D said:
Anything is possible, especially if someone has already corrected it (maybe a pic or two?).
Here's what short arbors look like when installed. It just so happens that since I'm working on Dickydalton's 2nd Gen, they almost always have a "broken through" arbor hole (originals don't). So, you can see the arbor / arbor hole relationship.
View attachment 330844

This is with the wedge driven all the way in.

Mike

Awsome pic, i wont be taking the loading rod off, however I am going to check it more once I have time.However the depth of the hole of the barrel, ..soo far seemed to match pretty tight depth wise per where I marked the Arbor itself, with the barrel installed.

I also noticed that, the face of the hole, has that crater in the center, where’s my arbor seems to make contact around the outside edge.Witch is fine enough for stability..but no matter..

If it turns out that , my Arbour is not fully making contact..I have plans to machine a steel plug, insert it ..and then bore out its remaining, with a Tri-Blade tip bit

As far as the gap that you showed above on yours.I dont think im that deep..but I could be wrong

45D · Jun 29, 2024

Gino753 said:
Awsome pic, i wont be taking the loading rod off, however I am going to check it more once I have time.However the depth of the hole of the barrel, ..soo far seemed to match pretty tight depth wise per where I marked the Arbor itself, with the barrel installed.

I also noticed that, the face of the hole, has that crater in the center, where’s my arbor seems to make contact around the outside edge.Witch is fine enough for stability..but no matter..

If it turns out that , my Arbour is not fully making contact..I have plans to machine a steel plug, insert it ..and then bore out its remaining, with a Tri-Blade tip bit

As far as the gap that you showed above on yours.I dont think im that deep..but I could be wrong

I'll just say, "measuring" is for the birds. The wedge changes everything . . . there's arbor diameter / arbor hole clearance (hence the big reason for NOT making changes just to do a stupid test!!!) and of course length under tension differences you can't measure. Soooo . . .

Mike

Gino753 · Jun 29, 2024

45D said:
I'll just say, "measuring" is for the birds. The wedge changes everything . . . there's arbor diameter / arbor hole clearance (hence the big reason for NOT making changes just to do a stupid test!!!) and of course length under tension differences you can't measure. Soooo . . .

Mike

Yeah, I hear you,..anyway sorry I didn’t catch it in your pic at first , but I can’t show a pic that way, because my Arbor hole is not broken through like that

But anyway..yeah the reason I’m measuring and testing is so that , I can of course be sure if my Arbor is in fact bottoming out or not.If it is not then I will have to make a plug like I mentioned, and make it fit correctly ,..witch i will for sure do.That way i can actually fire the gun, without destroying it

Thanks .45

Smokerr · Jun 30, 2024

Not wanting to get in line (grin) I just adjusted my 47 Walker with a larger shim and then fine tuned it with aluminum can shim(s)

I got a bit too much (or so I think) and had a .008 cylinder gap, so took out one can shim. Now its .004 and feels even.

It may go to Mike eventually, I really like it, had a lady all agaga at the range, what a cool gun (I think it was because the barrel comes off and not something most people see).

Gino753 · Jun 30, 2024

Smokerr said:
Not wanting to get in line (grin) I just adjusted my 47 Walker with a larger shim and then fine tuned it with aluminum can shim(s)

I got a bit too much (or so I think) and had a .008 cylinder gap, so took out one can shim. Now its .004 and feels even.

It may go to Mike eventually, I really like it, had a lady all agaga at the range, what a cool gun (I think it was because the barrel comes off and not something most people see).

Of course she was impressed.Thats a beautiful gun.Im going after one of those next.

I was checking out my 2nd Gen Dragoon again, tonight and it appears I got lucky

Maby Ivan Johnson , did this one right since they are gun builders, but the tip of my Arbor is in fact hitting home.As i made a shim out of a sheet of 0.004 Brass I have.As I have been having a blast making percussion caps, and it created a gap between the barrel block and frame, by about that much even

Like I mentioned yesturday though, I had allready applied a marking agent to the bottom face of the barrel bore hole, and put the gun together, and when it came appart , the tip of the Arbor was marked , so im going to make a paper thin shim anyway, maby 0.002-3 and try and fit that in, just for Security` , but as it is…I was real happy when initially removed the wedge last night

It released nice and smooth, and goes in nice

When I get my refund for that Uberti, I’ll probably go after a Walker.Although the guy wants $1600 for a 3rd Gen signature series, soo noo

45D · Jun 30, 2024

Gino753 said:
Of course she was impressed.Thats a beautiful gun.Im going after one of those next.

I was checking out my 2nd Gen Dragoon again, tonight and it appears I got lucky

Maby Ivan Johnson , did this one right since they are gun builders, but the tip of my Arbor is in fact hitting home.As i made a shim out of a sheet of 0.004 Brass I have.As I have been having a blast making percussion caps, and it created a gap between the barrel block and frame, by about that much even

Like I mentioned yesturday though, I had allready applied a marking agent to the bottom face of the barrel bore hole, and put the gun together, and when it came appart , the tip of the Arbor was marked , so im going to make a paper thin shim anyway, maby 0.002-3 and try and fit that in, just for Security` , but as it is…I was real happy when initially removed the wedge last night

It released nice and smooth, and goes in nice

When I get my refund for that Uberti, I’ll probably go after a Walker.Although the guy wants $1600 for a 3rd Gen signature series, soo noo

Your phone doesn't have a camera?
Hmmmmm . . .

Mike

Gino753 · Jun 30, 2024

45D said:
Your phone doesn't have a camera?
Hmmmmm . . .

Mike

What would you like to see? Exactly..I know it may be hard to believe..lol..but it is what it is.As i have looked around on this topic, there have apparently been other examples that had a longer than needed Arbor…or an example that is done exact.

To be honest, it’s really not that serious..you seem to be , in complete disbelief,

I just don’t know , in this case what i could show? And how I could show it

I mean for god sakes…if i really wanted to lie about it…anyway…To brag,to the internet about this special “Unicorn” that i ,.Gino Delucia ,.were special enough to get, and the internet demanded pictures to prove that Unicorn exists in neverland.

Do you know how easy, I could in fact show you ,using my sophisticated measuring tools, how the barrel bore for instance, is exactly…not just close..EXACTLY..Dead set 0.001 to 0.001 as to where the Arbor stops it’s insertion?

You would then say…Damn..you lucked out Gino..ok end of conversation

And that would be a lot of work, for???

With that said, i just don’t know how I could show you proof, while someone holds the Camera? Who is not here…and ?? I show what? Lol

New to me Colt Baby Dragoon Gen 2

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