Whom Used a Frizzen Stall?

I answered "no" only because I don't have any. I intend to get several in different sizes, if I can, to fit each of my flintlocks, but haven't gotten around to measuring them all yet.

Tumbledown said:

....

Also, one should NEVER rely solely on the half cock notch, on ANY gun.

Click to expand...

While that statement is a gold standard for manual of arms safety, there are some guns that ONLY have half-cock and nothing else. I always test half-cock before loading by both pressing the trigger and pushing on the hammer (or the cock, as applicable to lock type).

Stall leather shouldn't effect the frizzen- unless it is chemically tanned. Veg-tanned will not react but the salts left in chrome/chemical tannage can rust knives or frizzens.

Smokey Plainsman said:

Who here like to use a hammer or frizzen stall? This is a leather device placed on the frizzen to protect against accidental discharge whilst hunting.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

I use one. It was required safety equipment in all the reenactments I've done, so I was very used to using one and don't even think about it. It lives on my rifle hanging in the living room. Never gave it a second though hunting - just used it all the time as I always have. And of course, I place the lock in half-cock safety position too. Trying to recall how I remove it. It's habitual and I don't even think about it. I think I flick it off the frizzen with my ring (maybe middle finger) as I reach up to pull the cock into the full cock position. It's tied to the trigger guard by a leather lace, so it's easy to find to put back in place after shooting. When I hang my rifle up I open the frizzen and release the cock so there's no tension on the lock spring. Yes there is tension on the frizzen spring but it only has to be strong enough to keep the frizzen from rebounding and breaking your flint. So I'm not concerned about that. but I don't want to weaken the lock spring.

wiscoaster said:

I answered "no" only because I don't have any. I intend to get several in different sizes, if I can, to fit each of my flintlocks, but haven't gotten around to measuring them all yet.


While that statement is a gold standard for manual of arms safety, there are some guns that ONLY have half-cock and nothing else. I always test half-cock before loading by both pressing the trigger and pushing on the hammer (or the cock, as applicable to lock type).

Click to expand...

At reenactments they require you to hang your rifle or musket by the trigger from your index finger with the lock in half-cock position. If the half-cock can't hold the gun's weight without firing, you are not allowed to use it. You can go fiddle with your lock and re-test it, but you can't use it for the reenactment as-is.

All normal firearm safety rules apply too - always treat a gun as if it's loaded, never point your muzzle at anything you don't want to destroy, and always be sure of both your target and the background (where will it go if you miss the target). Even when shooting blanks at reenactments, these universal rules apply. The hammer-stall and half-cock test are extra measures for safety with a flintlock.

I have one on my hunting flintlock. As I am more active carrying it in the woods/hunting, it is just an extra easy level of safety with a primed arm. I do not use one on my target rifles, as I prime only on the firing line.

Commodore Swab said:

Care to share a link for historical precedent or your information?

Click to expand...

I was mistaken about the sentry duty. It was best to *not* use hammer stalls on sentry duty, but were at othertimes useful.

It is left to their [officers] discretion in time of real Action to disencumber such men as they may think proper entirely of them [arms], taking care that they be lodged in their Ammunition Carriages and to prevent any possible Accident happening therefrom, thumb stalls have been ordered to be provided which the men are constantly to keep on the hammer of their pieces except when posted centrys." Great Britain, Royal Artillery Regiment Library, Woolwich, Brigade Orderly Book, James Pattison Papers. 1778


...On Service, leather Hammer-stalls are undoubtedly an advantage to a Battalion, when loaded, and resting on their Arms, as accidents may be prevented by having them fixed upon the hammers of the Firelocks..."
Cuthbertson. (pg 93, XIII).


There is mention of them HERE, along wth lock covers, in a 1761 letter to George Washington. The key lines:

...that The Assembly will order their being immediately furnish’d; there are several other things wanted, to complete us for the Feild, particularly Tents and Bayonets, but it’s probable the Crown will supply us with Tents, and the nature of the Service we are likely to be employ’d in, will in some measure dispense with Bayonets, we can make Lock Covers of Cow Hides, and Hammer Stalls of Deer Skines [emphasis mine]


Artificer (over on another forum) has also shared THIS PAINTING c 1751 showing a soldier's musket having a hammer stall.


We shouldn't think hammer stalls are silly or useless. They actually add to historical representation.

For hunting, yes. For other times no. I’ve made several, but since I don’t hunt much anymore they’re seldom used.

Tumbledown said:

I was mistaken about the sentry duty. It was best to *not* use hammer stalls on sentry duty, but were at othertimes useful.

It is left to their [officers] discretion in time of real Action to disencumber such men as they may think proper entirely of them [arms], taking care that they be lodged in their Ammunition Carriages and to prevent any possible Accident happening therefrom, thumb stalls have been ordered to be provided which the men are constantly to keep on the hammer of their pieces except when posted centrys." Great Britain, Royal Artillery Regiment Library, Woolwich, Brigade Orderly Book, James Pattison Papers. 1778


...On Service, leather Hammer-stalls are undoubtedly an advantage to a Battalion, when loaded, and resting on their Arms, as accidents may be prevented by having them fixed upon the hammers of the Firelocks..."
Cuthbertson. (pg 93, XIII).


There is mention of them HERE, along wth lock covers, in a 1761 letter to George Washington. The key lines:

...that The Assembly will order their being immediately furnish’d; there are several other things wanted, to complete us for the Feild, particularly Tents and Bayonets, but it’s probable the Crown will supply us with Tents, and the nature of the Service we are likely to be employ’d in, will in some measure dispense with Bayonets, we can make Lock Covers of Cow Hides, and Hammer Stalls of Deer Skines [emphasis mine]


Artificer (over on another forum) has also shared THIS PAINTING c 1751 showing a soldier's musket having a hammer stall.


We shouldn't think hammer stalls are silly or useless. They actually add to historical representation.

Click to expand...

Thank you, it's good to see unlike the flash guards they are so often "bundled" with.

Smokey Plainsman said:

Who here like to use a hammer or frizzen stall? This is a leather device placed on the frizzen to protect against accidental discharge whilst hunting.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

I have for many years. I teach hunter education in Pa. and encourage the use of frizzen covers aka hammer stall. I encourage the students to take the finger out of a leather glove, fit it and tie it to the trigger guard. We teach the half cock notch is not a true safety on any hammer gun. BJH

I use one. Protects frizzen surface and looks cool too.

For the person who only shoots the flintlock at the bench or at a range where safety protocols are followed, a hammer stall may not be necessary.
At re-enactments we have always used them which I think is appropriate.

If you are going to the field to shoot or hunt,
Especially if there are other people around, a hammer stall should be used. I spend week long hunts in a period camp, entering and exiting canoes multiple times a day hunting ducks and deer from a canoe and the added safety measure is a must for me!!!!
Had an incident where one flintlock was in the canoe as I pulled the canoe onto the shore. The flinter slid along the bottom of the canoe and the lock fired. The piece misfired but the lock sparked the pan power. The flinter was pointed toward the bow right where I was pulling on the canoe.

Before that happened I mostly hunted alone and didn’t use a hammerstall. Now I use one always and I make them up for anyone I hunt with. Hope this helps.

Jay Templin said:

They weren’t used by British soldiers. They were recommended by Cuthbertson in 1768 but not adopted. Like his insane suggestion that soldiers should be issued straight-lasted shoes and required to switch them from foot to foot to even out the wear. Clearly the musings of someone who had minimal experience with the things he was making recommendations about.
Jay

Click to expand...

There’s nothing wrong with using them at events. Same with flash guards.

As to the shoes, who will know? I don’t care about hand stitching.

sturmkatze said:

There’s nothing wrong with using them at events. Same with flash guards.

As to the shoes, who will know? I don’t care about hand stitching.

Click to expand...

Straight lasted shoes conform to the feet within hours. Switching feet wears them out demonstrably faster than not switching, as well as being terribly uncomfortable. Cuthbertson, like most officers, likely wore bespoke shoes instead of ready-made, so his would have been left and right lasted.
Jay

This thread reminded me and I just bought three from the forum classifieds.

Never saw the need, never used one.

No. I don't use one. Half cock works for me.

Commodore Swab said:

No.

Most reenactment events should include a weapons check which would insure half cock is working. The reason they are required is the same reason as flash guards. Some idiot pencil pusher knowing nothing thought it would be a good idea and made it "law". You aren't going to protect a fool from doing something foolish.

Click to expand...

Do you know exactly when your halfcock notch failed? It can't be predicted or known until it is broken.
Maybe it was during the safety check while your muzzleloader was hanging on your finger.

I have observed the same wear of my straight lasted shoes as @Jay Templin observed. It didn't take long for the straight lasted shoes to conform to my right and left feet.

skwerleater said:

Had an incident where one flintlock was in the canoe as I pulled the canoe onto the shore. The flinter slid along the bottom of the canoe and the lock fired.

Click to expand...

That reminded me of a passage from a journal I read some years ago. I don't remember the specific journal but it mentions a Trapper removing his rifle from a canoe and it went off hitting him. Think he died from the shot.

All mentioned in a seemingly casual way in the journal. I'm sure his companions weren't casual about it but many of those journal entries were brief with little detail.

wiscoaster said:

I answered "no" only because I don't have any. I intend to get several in different sizes, if I can, to fit each of my flintlocks, but haven't gotten around to measuring them all yet.


While that statement is a gold standard for manual of arms safety, there are some guns that ONLY have half-cock and nothing else. I always test half-cock before loading by both pressing the trigger and pushing on the hammer (or the cock, as applicable to lock type).

Click to expand...

You know a hammer stall is actually really easy to make if you're interested in making one. Mine are a folded piece of leather in the shape of a half moon with a tab on each end that is folded in the middle and stitched on one side. I punched a hole through that little bump of leather on the side at the bottom, it and slipped a leather lace through. Then I tied one end of the leather lace around the trigger guard and put the other end through the hole and just tied a half-knot in the end to keep it from slipping back through. Most of the production ones have a hole at the top and I didn't like so I made mine on the side. you can probably get about 6 hammer stalls out of a 1-ft. square piece of leather. This one is about 15 to 17-years old and has been through a LOT of reenactments and some hunting too.

I used waxed linen thread (from Tandy Leather) to sew it, but the imitation sinew works too if you don't mind the look of it. Imitation sinew is a nylon and very strong, just doesn't look like real sinew. I also used a saddle stitch because it's strong, looks good, and I like doing it, but you could easily just do a running stitch on this as it's not really going to be under a lot of strain. Don't use too thin of a piece of leather though because your flint is sharp and you don't want it wearing through and striking the frizzen (called the "hammer" in the 1700's). I think mine is about 1/8" thick. 1/4" thick is harder to handle (fold and sew) and I haven't worn though mine after years of reenactments.

faces flint faces muzzle