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Blackdog

Blackdog

32 Cal
Joined
Aug 11, 2024
Messages
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Location
Gulfport, MS
A little while l back I went to a rather "interesting" estate sale. The items I walked out with included the 3 wheellock mechanisms pictured here. Now I've been shooting/collecting muzzleloaders for 40+ years, but wheellocks, well they just don't show up in my neck of the woods very often. I knew enough to recognize what they were, but that's about it. I've been doing a bit of on-line research since then, but don't really have access to detailed resource material. So, I'm here hoping those "in the know" might provide some info. They are as found (dirty) and I don't see any markings on them except the small dagger (?) mark on this inside of the smaller lock. The two larger ones are a bit rough, and one does appear to be missing at least one internal part. So, can anyone provide insights as to whether these are early/late, where they were made, were they likely made for pistol or rifle, etc.? Any info would be greatly appreciated.
 

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Nice pickup! With the makers mark, I almost want to say this one could be Dutch or from that region. It doesn’t look as finally made as original Italian wheellock locks that I have.

I took the liberty of brightening up and resizing your photos, perhaps to show more details to others. @TobJohn is our resident early arms reseacher and maybe he’s assembled some notes on the ‘different’ styles.

Those include, but are not limited to, size of the lock plate (the larger, the typically the earlier) the shape of the lock plate, note where later or more elegant ones (or for pistols) omitted the lock plate where the dog spring goes, like the last 2 you have.

Here’s the first one …


IMG_2352.jpeg


IMG_2351.jpeg


IMG_2350.jpeg


Maybe Brian Anderson or Rudyard will see these and comment. Sadly - or good for me - depending on how you look at it, but I shoot them more than I research them, LOL!
 
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BTW, definitely ‘older’ IMHO by the shape of the hand-made threaded bolts, but these confuse me for origin for 2 reasons.

(1) They appear much more crude than the original Italian, Brescian, Germanic and Dutch locks I own and/or have handled. And (2) That large projection on the dog arm throws me …

BTW, defintely ‘older’ by the shape of the hamd-made machine threaded bolts, but rhese confuse me for origin for 2 reasons.

1) They appear much more crude than original Italian, Brescian, Germanic and Dutch locks I have. And (2) That large projection on the dog arm throws me …

IMG_2354.jpeg


IMG_2359.jpeg
IMG_2360.jpeg


IMG_2361.jpeg
 
Flint62Smoothie, thanks much for the help with the pics! Really helps with showing details. And, yeah, to me, the two bigger locks do seem pretty crude compared to most pictures I've found on-line. Adding to that, they also appear very well used (aka "beat"). They could all benefit from a bit of gentle cleaning as well, but, as I'm out of my element here, I am moving with caution and leaving them alone for now. Thanks again.
 
I did ponder whether these might be later copies that have been '"aged" a bit to make them appear older than they are. I'm pretty good at spotting repos/fakes, but in this instance, I just don't have the expertise to tell. They do, however, strike me as being rather old. Interestingly, there was an armored leather gauntlet that came along with them that is also in pretty rough shape. I'm not sure on it either, but my initial impression (based on two tags affixed inside written in the old Germanic alphabet) is that it is likely a well-aged Victorian reproduction.
 
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You have a spanner … you should at least be able to try to wind them sloooowly (clockwise only when looking at the lock from the outside, with the pan open!) and see if they even ‘clock’ (sear nose drops into the ‘trap’ hole in the wheel to ‘lock’ it cocked) while holding the spanner firm in your hand. If needed, trip the sear whilst holding the spanner sms slooooooowly unwind the wheel.

Any questions and I can check them out for you, only co$ts you the postage both ways. My work is free, $0. I have done that for many here on Wheellock locks …

It needed, I can even send it along to Brian, as I can do that too. And have done that, like when new springs are needed. (Brian is an absolute MASTER on gunsprings!)

But I have made and fixed wheellocks for about 3 members here so far, making either replacement sear levers or sears.
 
Flint62Smoothie said:
You have a spanner … you should at least be able to try to wind them sloooowly (clockwise only when looking at the lock from the outside, with the pan open!) and see if they even ‘clock’ (sear nose drops into the ‘trap’ hole in the wheel to ‘lock’ it cocked) while holding the spanner firm in your hand. If needed, trip the sear whilst holding the spanner sms slooooooowly unwind the wheel.

Any questions and I can check them out for you, only co$ts you the postage both ways. My work is free, $0. I have done that for many here on Wheellock locks …

It needed, I can even send it along to Brian, as I can do that too. And have done that, like when new springs are needed. (Brian is an absolute MASTER on gunsprings!)

But I have made and fixed wheellocks for about 3 members here so far, making either replacement sear levers or sears.
Click to expand...
PM sent.
 
Sam squanch said:
May be later copies.
Click to expand...
Whatever the origin there is too much clever work in them to be Victorian or fakes which leads me to consider them right .The screw heads big and crude looking seem right enough, unless I missed it I only saw two locks nice find what ever origin .Nice dog too.
Rudyard's observation
 
Flint62Smoothie said:
Nice pickup! With the makers mark, I almost want to say this one could be Dutch or from that region. It doesn’t look as finally made as original Italian wheellock locks that I have.

I took the liberty of brightening up and resizing your photos, perhaps to show more details to others. @TobJohn is our resident early arms reseacher and maybe he’s assembled some notes on the ‘different’ styles.

Those include, but are not limited to, size of the lock plate (the larger, the typically the earlier) the shape of the lock plate, note where later or more elegant ones (or for pistols) omitted the lock plate where the dog spring goes, like the last 2 you have.

Here’s the first one …


View attachment 345328

View attachment 345329

View attachment 345330

Maybe Brian Anderson or Rudyard will see these and comment. Sadly - or good for me - depending on how you look at it, but I shoot them more than I research them, LOL!
Click to expand...
I concur that is Dutch or German. Very typical of the 30 years war wheellocks from those regions. A Swedish museum has musket with a similar lock that they claim is Swedish, but I find that unlikely.
CB054501-6C66-4632-9D56-F81FFF9BD1CE (1).jpeg

A German example:

Screenshot 2023-04-06 165052.jpg



The other ones look like Germanic wheellocks from the second half of the 16th century. They have the same plate shape, size, and the flat decoration on the dog, but the lack of a safety and the long tail on the dog are unusual.
Pistolet a rouet.jpeg



The top lock with the cross bar retainer has decoration and unnecessary shaping on the springs, which is very authentic, while the other two suspiciously lack anything similar, particularly for earlier style locks.
 
Thanks all for the information so far. After reading the comments and taking a harder look at the larger locks, I'm wondering if their lack of embelishment might be the result of heavy use and/or over cleaning. The front spring (pardon my ignorance on terminology) of at least one of them looks like it had some engraving at one point that has mostly worn away.

Thanks again for all the replys/info.
 

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I would send them to an expert for disassembly and closer evaluation. You may have something worth big bucks there!
 
Dont't know about that, but whatever they may be worth it will probably be a heck of a lot more than I have in em...
 
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Rudyard said:
Whatever the origin there is too much clever work in them to be Victorian or fakes which leads me to consider them right .The screw heads big and crude looking seem right enough, unless I missed it I only saw two locks nice find what ever origin .Nice dog too.
Rudyard's observation
Click to expand...
Much agree with Rudyard here. In certain cases I've seen with Victorian copies of guns using a wheellock, much of the internal parts were stripped out to make it easier to mount to the stock. The Victorian copies of course just made for display.
Bot WOW !!! Nice find.

Rick
 

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