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Ottoman Guns

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Here are some additional photos of my (now correctly identified) Armenian/Zeytun musket. 6 of the 8 barrel bands still have their blue enamel color. Intricate carving on the butt stock.

Rick

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Certainly possible. These were captured during the Great Turkish War, as far as I know, and it seems there was a fad during that era to use/show off Ottoman items as to signify that the user had participated in the war and earned loot. I've seen a couple of Ottoman muskets modified for European tastes from that era.




We'd actually discussed the Zeytunis some years back, but I had no clue about its details such as the Arevakhatch - it is certainly nice to have someone learned in Armenian culture to teach us more about these svelte firearms. However, I must say that the "splendid example" may be a modern reproduction/modification. Decorative Zeytunis are still built in the eastern parts of Turkey, some from cannibalized original parts, some from scratch, and the barrel bands and the plate on the stock remind me of the garish work done by modern reproducers (there's a smaller but similarly annoying trend of such tacky decorations on Shishanes).

As an example of the modern reproductions, here's a massive decorative Zeytuni built in Kahramanmaraş during the pandemic:
'Ginness book of records' I can read that much Turkish .I suppose I'v e cannibalized related parts to make an example .But I see it as better than floating bits in a box and not necessarily a bad thing the parts are just together in a gun that they can be removed from .But are hopefully still in context a large Quantity of barrels that where apparently stored in Iranian police stations likely taken from the Kurds ( A few I've had a run-in with & don.t care for but there are knaves in any nation) .

But Major Noel Corry went into these regions seeking Persian Artillery Lugers but was obligated to take all these guns & gun barrels which he did in truck loads back the England where he sold them cheap enough . I gathered numbers which I've used over many years as have others like me . He must have reached the border of Baluchistan since there where guns from that region double barreled rifles 58 cal made by V Gullicers a Liege with Snow lions in the locks & much worn Werndles .plus double carbines of the Sinde irregular horse of Jacobs Sowers . The first post on the ' Ottoman Guns ' thread shows some all made up of parts not one in its original state but what others through away literally , I saved and have thusly examples most fit to use which I don't feel the least bit guilty about saveing them . Most all the barrels had been put to percussion with a sort of elongated' Drum & nipple' so resembled the' bar' normally found on percussion guns one I made up to be used as altered rather than put to a new vented reconversion .
Regards Rudyard
( The incorrigible ?)
 
Wow Rick, you have a very beautiful example. Excellent photos, love the carving on yours.

Some more from my end.

1: Zeytuns princes (The costume is the same as the one worn by that Assyrian/Chaldean man. In addition to the ruling Armenians, there were Turks, Assyrians, and Kurds living in the area.)

2: Zeytunians, early 20th century. Mix of modern European firearms, and Zeytun guns in the back.

3: Nice percussion with an Arevakhatch decoration

3: Some elders from Zeytun posing with their weapons in Lebanon, 1945.
 

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Wow Rick, you have a very beautiful example. Excellent photos, love the carving on yours.

Some more from my end.

1: Zeytuns princes (The costume is the same as the one worn by that Assyrian/Chaldean man. In addition to the ruling Armenians, there were Turks, Assyrians, and Kurds living in the area.)

2: Zeytunians, early 20th century. Mix of modern European firearms, and Zeytun guns in the back.

3: Nice percussion with an Arevakhatch decoration

3: Some elders from Zeytun posing with their weapons in Lebanon, 1945.
Dear Avtogaz Really' knock your eye out 'carving on the stocks ' Cant not but admire that work . Be a hard act to follow and there's some bueties produced in the other regions most I never knew existed beyound a belief that many fine barrels where produced in Kurdistan historically though I had bother with them and wrote them off as worthy people noted for praying on travelers filling potholes with straw to wreck cars ect . But I suppose every society has its' bad eggs '.
Regards Rudyard
 
WOW !!! Beautiful pistols - ALL !!! First time I can recall seeing a match pair of rat-tail pistols. And in such good condition. Thanks again for the photos.

Rick
 
Great stuff ! I have a detached barrel on the short Koftgari inlet type now I know what it would have been stocked like but ime a bit out of steam to be doing it now.( ime allready struggleing to complete guns) so Ile get pics & see what you all think . Nobody in NZ I know would be a better stocker. Freind in Wellington knows Dale or a Dale who made wheellocks & theirs one coming up in Auction they list as 'original' despite Rolands telling them its new work .! All sounds like the fabled Dale justifiably fabled I must add . The pics Rolands sent me today are of a pair is Civil war dogged English locked pistols plus a paddle sort butt with two W lock pieces the upper very like' Felix Werder' a style I made only its early flint Ive never met Dale just know of him, I think wede get on well Come to that I've never met any bar Pukka & Rob Dean of you inc Rolands but I think we get on very well' brothers chip '( occasional horrific sawing & rebarrel ing stunts not with standing .) Later when my daughter gets up Ile get pics of my work (I do struggle with tecno gajets a blind spot I must confess unlike Tobjohn who's a whizz with such things . More then anon Regards Rudyard
 
Here's something interesting that someone posted on Twitter - a collection of Ottoman firearms from the late 17th-early 18th century, in the Museo Civico Nationale in Bologna. Apparently some of the items on display belonged to Luigi Ferdinando Marsigli, known for his State of the Military of the Ottoman Empire, among other things. Of interest are the combination matchlock-miquelet, and the Balkan/Adriatic looking gun with what seems like an agujeta lock that we usually see on Algerian rifles. Enjoy.
 

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Hi Barud

Thanks for this photo. A super interesting collection. And yes, these do look like early guns.

1. That combination matchlock/miquelet lock is truly interesting. If you look closely, you can see the ball trigger for the miquelet. And just to the rear, the lever trigger for the matchlock serpentine. This would not be too difficult to build since the serpentine is inside the stock and the miquelet, with it's external mainspring, requiring less wood removal from the outside.
2. The second gun from the top with the agujeta lock is most interesting. The general butt stock shape looks similar to early Italian shoulder guns even back to the wheellock period. The lock indeed looks like the ones on the later Algerian muskets. It's believed by some (including myself) that those big Algerian locks were originally copied from the earliest styles of Spanish miquelet locks. With one curious difference. Every Algerian lock I've seen has it's mainspring operate from the toe of the cock (Italian/Roman style) versus the heel of the cock (Spanish style). The lock on the gun in the photo appears to have the mainspring operate on the heel of the cock. All of this suggests that this gun could be pre-1700. A very cool gun.
3. As I look at the two matchlocks it reminds me of how difficult it is for collectors today to locate original examples of Ottoman/Turkish matchlocks. There seems to be very few remaining specimens even though many were likely made. A curious mystery.

Rick
 
Hi Barud

Thanks for this photo. A super interesting collection. And yes, these do look like early guns.

1. That combination matchlock/miquelet lock is truly interesting. If you look closely, you can see the ball trigger for the miquelet. And just to the rear, the lever trigger for the matchlock serpentine. This would not be too difficult to build since the serpentine is inside the stock and the miquelet, with it's external mainspring, requiring less wood removal from the outside.
2. The second gun from the top with the agujeta lock is most interesting. The general butt stock shape looks similar to early Italian shoulder guns even back to the wheellock period. The lock indeed looks like the ones on the later Algerian muskets. It's believed by some (including myself) that those big Algerian locks were originally copied from the earliest styles of Spanish miquelet locks. With one curious difference. Every Algerian lock I've seen has it's mainspring operate from the toe of the cock (Italian/Roman style) versus the heel of the cock (Spanish style). The lock on the gun in the photo appears to have the mainspring operate on the heel of the cock. All of this suggests that this gun could be pre-1700. A very cool gun.
3. As I look at the two matchlocks it reminds me of how difficult it is for collectors today to locate original examples of Ottoman/Turkish matchlocks. There seems to be very few remaining specimens even though many were likely made. A curious mystery.

Rick
Right on fully in agreement .
Regards Rudyard
 
Just touched down back in the USA and couldn’t resist a little group pic of something’s I had to unpack. More to follow post het lag and cleaning of the long guns!

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Well thats a handsome collection two nice pallascas the smaller flask a Rattail pistol in all that good kit, long guns too. 'Up town!' which I think mean good & Favourable closest I got was the Revill kit many years ago, any of them spare ? .
Regards Rudyard
 
Recently I translated a bit of a book that I figured would be of interest to some here. Specifically relevant to Ottoman Guns, accessories, and typology in the Eastern regions, more specifically among the Armenians of Sasun. The neighboring Kurds and Assyrians also existed in a common cultural space, so more likely than not the bigger picture applies to them as well.

"The main weapon of the Sasunian was the Chakhmakhli (Miquelet Lock) musket. Chakhmakhli muskets, which the locals called Tv@ng, had several names according to their type. Majar, Shashkhan, Tersmi, Stampuli, Nahvlu, etc etc. They were to various degrees of long, short, or medium length. The diameters of the barrels were different as well. As such, the Stampuli's barrel was 15 millimeters in diameter, took three direms of black powder and a big ball, while the other types had barrels 12 millimeters in diameter, took from 1.5–2 direms of black powder, and were loaded with smaller balls.

The parts of the muskets were named lula (Barrel), vet or ghondagh (Butt), abrjan (The part connecting the barrel to the stock), nshanga (Sights), chakhmakh (Miquelet lock), the cushion of the tez (?), and the shish and ghayish (Gun container and sling).

Auxiliary items included the shshmat (wooden ramrod), darb@nks (cartridges), and a leather cartridge pouch, in which cartridges with enough black powder for one shot were lined up, whose openings were closed with cloth corks, so that the powder would not fall out if the user was making fast movements. The corks were tied up with leather strings to keep them secure.

To have black powder ready at hand, it was poured into a flask made of a water buffalo's horn or hard wood, which was decorated with ivory, mother of pearl, and silver thread. The backside was thick, while the front was thin and curved. A strong steel mechanism was attached, whereby upon squeezing it the hole for powder would open up, and by letting go it would close.

The direm was a cylindrical measuring device made of yellow pig iron, in which a long square-shaped metal bar was attached. The bar was moved back and forward, and stopped when it reached the level corresponding to the load taken by a given musket. The correct load was then poured into the darb@nks, and if necessary into the gun itself. 50–60 ready-made lead balls and extra flints were kept in the Gluli javd (A closed leather bag). As decoration, thin and long tassels were hung from the bottom of the javd.

When arming himself, the Sasunian would tie the cartridge pouch to his back, then the Javd bag and the powder flask would be worn from the left shoulder, ending up under the right arm. The dagger was worn on the right side of the belt, while the sword was hung on a belt from the right shoulder ending up under the left arm. All of that together made up the armament of a Sasunian."
-Eghizar Karapetyan, "Sasun: Ethnographic Materials).

Below is a photo of a man from Sasun with all his armament. You can see the details match very well with a lot of the stuff described above, although he has some extra weapons (A shield and an axe. Although the excerpt above says they were armed with only a dagger, gun, and sword the axe and shield are well documented in other literature). I also didn't get where some of the stuff like the bag is.
 

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