load question

20gaugecalvary · Sep 6, 2024

I'm brand new to muzzleloading, and came across an old thompson center hawken .45 rifle. I wanted to try it out, so I bought .440 round balls, lubed patches (0.01) and some pyrodex FFG rifle powder.

My question is in terms of measuring the load, and I apologize if this is a dumb question, but I'm having a hard time finding the answer to it:

I wanted to go with 60 grains of FFG.

I have two ways to measure the powder.

1) One of those small brass powder measures that go up to 120 grains
2) A lee precision powder measure kit, which measures stuff using cubic centimeters, and then you look up the approximations from a slide card they give you... based on what kind of powder you're measuring.

I'm confused because when I measure out 60 grains of FFG pyrodex powder in the brass measuring tool, and approximately 60 grains from the lee precision powder measure kit, they do not appear to be close.

My understanding is that they're measuring the powder in terms of volume, not weight, so why is there such a difference?

The lee precision cups is showing that 60 grains is more than 10% more than what the brass measurer is saying is 60 grains.

Thank you in advance...

Loyalist Dave · Sep 6, 2024

So before you go down a rabbit hole, use the brass, adjustable measure. Worry about the Lee powder measure kit later.
The old rule-of-thumb was start out with loads equal to your caliber, rounded to the nearest ten, so a .45 would start with 50 grains, while a .54 would also.

Then work up to an accurate load, PLUS one that cracks. (You may find your most accurate load already cracks) To find out...,you get a second person to stand off to the side about 20 yards when you shoot, and when they hear an audible "crack" when you fire, that means that your projectile has launched super-sonic. That's where a lot of the old school shooters would halt increasing their load, so long as it was accurate. They didn't know anything about "super sonic", but they did know that the load that had an audible crack seemed to perform better on Big Game . They also didn't want to waste powder, as it wasn't always cheap, nor always readily available.

In my case I wanted to hunt deer, and in my state the minimum deer load, regardless of caliber, was 60 grains. So to be on the safe side I shoot 70 grains of 3Fg.

LD

reddogge · Sep 6, 2024

Use a measure designed for black powder. You don't have to have 100% to the grain measurements, make sure they all are the same each time. I'd start with 45-50 grains myself. I was shooting a .45 rifle yesterday and accuracy at 50 yards was great with 45 grains FFFG Swiss.

20gaugecalvary · Sep 6, 2024

Loyalist Dave said:
So before you go down a rabbit hole, use the brass, adjustable measure. Worry about the Lee powder measure kit later.
The old rule-of-thumb was start out with loads equal to your caliber, rounded to the nearest ten, so a .45 would start with 50 grains, while a .54 would also.

Then work up to an accurate load, PLUS one that cracks. (You may find your most accurate load already cracks) To find out...,you get a second person to stand off to the side about 20 yards when you shoot, and when they hear an audible "crack" when you fire, that means that your projectile has launched super-sonic. That's where a lot of the old school shooters would halt increasing their load, so long as it was accurate. They didn't know anything about "super sonic", but they did know that the load that had an audible crack seemed to perform better on Big Game . They also didn't want to waste powder, as it wasn't always cheap, nor always readily available.

In my case I wanted to hunt deer, and in my state the minimum deer load, regardless of caliber, was 60 grains. So to be on the safe side I shoot 70 grains of 3Fg.

LD

Thank you for the reply. Yeah, I heard that general rule of thumb regarding the caliber and grain size. Can I ask why you're using 3FG powder in a rifle, if 3FG is for pistols? Thanks.

20gaugecalvary · Sep 6, 2024

reddogge said:
Use a measure designed for black powder. You don't have to have 100% to the grain measurements, make sure they all are the same each time. I'd start with 45-50 grains myself. I was shooting a .45 rifle yesterday and accuracy at 50 yards was great with 45 grains FFFG Swiss.

20gaugecalvary · Sep 6, 2024

What do you recommend for my rifle? I have the 2F pyrodex powder for rifles... I was thinking 60 grains. Why do you use FFFG, isn't that more for pistols?

TCMonts · Sep 6, 2024

As a general rule, I would start at 1x caliber for round ball up to 1.5x. For heavier conicals in well made heavy barreled rifles 1.5 up to 2x, that would be 45 to 70 for prb and 70to 90 for coicals.
Pistols will do well with .5 to 1x caliber. YMMV

wiscoaster · Sep 6, 2024

20gaugecalvary said:
....

The lee precision cups is showing that 60 grains is more than 10% more than what the brass measurer is saying is 60 grains.

....

Settling may be part of the issue. When pouring powder into the brass measure, first top it off, then tap its base against something to settle the powder in the measure. You'll notice it settles quite a bit. Then re-top it off. I'll bet if you do that again and compare against the Lee measure there won't be as much difference.

Grenadier1758 · Sep 6, 2024

I agree with @Loyalist Dave that you should use the adjustable brass volumetric measure. Pyrodex must be measured by volume as it is less dense than black powder. If @20gaugecalvary weighed the Pyrodex, he would be loading about 10% stronger charge than that grain weight of black powder.

The fouling from Pyrodex is quite corrosive and must be cleaned shortly after the shooting is done. Use a water based cleaning solution. Warm, not excessively hot, water and a grease and oil cutting solution of dish soap. Once clean and dried of the cleaning solution, use a rust inhibiting protective lube.

SDSmlf · Sep 6, 2024

20gaugecalvary said:
I'm confused because when I measure out 60 grains of FFG pyrodex powder in the brass measuring tool, and approximately 60 grains from the lee precision powder measure kit, they do not appear to be close.

My understanding is that they're measuring the powder in terms of volume, not weight, so why is there such a difference?

The lee precision cups is showing that 60 grains is more than 10% more than what the brass measurer is saying is 60 grains

The Lee Powder Measure Kit is relatively accurate with both blackpowder and Pyrodex, you are just using the Kit’s included chart information incorrectly for what you are trying to do.

Pyrodex is bulkier than blackpowder so Pyrodex weighs less by volume than blackpowder. Using the Lee Kit chart, the 4.00 CC scoop will hold 58.8 grains of BLACK FFG or 49.3 grains of H-PYRDX. The Pyrodex is approximately 16% lighter than blackpowder. When muzzleloading you want to load the volume equivalent of blackpowder when using Pyrodex, so for your purposes, use the blackpowder values from the chart. Specifically for your example, the 4.00 CC scoop will give you a Pyrodex charge that is the volume equivalent of 58.8 grains of 2F blackpowder.

And remember, consistency in how you scoop or measure either blackpowder or Pyrodex will be your friend, so pick a method and stick with it. To keep it simpler for now, probably best to do as @Loyalist Dave suggests and just use the brass measure, especially if you are still confused.

longcruise · Sep 6, 2024

20gaugecalvary said:
Thank you for the reply. Yeah, I heard that general rule of thumb regarding the caliber and grain size. Can I ask why you're using 3FG powder in a rifle, if 3FG is for pistols? Thanks.

I, and many others here, shoot 3f in everything. I shoot 3f schuetzen in 45 rifle up to 58 rifle. If I had a 62 I'd use it in that too. But, there's nothing wrong with using 2f or either pyrodex RS or P. Just decide and stick with it.

As far as the crack goes, any charge of any powder from a 45 grain volumetric measure in a tc 45 is going to be exceeding the speed of sound. I've chronographed my tc 45 extensively and that proved it.

Don't over complicate this. Decide what you will use the rifle for and go from there. If it's only targets, start low and go up in increments. And don't let Murphy fool you. He will give you the most accurate load by shooting five shot groups but will stand back and chuckle when he sees you discovering that load will never do it again.

If you want to hunt with it look for adequate accuracy for the game you will hunt with a charge that will kill at the distance you will max out your shooting.

SeaBee133 · Sep 6, 2024

20gaugecalvary said:
Thank you for the reply. Yeah, I heard that general rule of thumb regarding the caliber and grain size. Can I ask why you're using 3FG powder in a rifle, if 3FG is for pistols? Thanks.

Shoots cleaner than 2F, more complete combustion due to the finer particles.
I normally use 3F in a revolver, prefer 4F as it is more historically correct. Historic pistol (cap and ball revolver)powders were 4F or even finer.
2F is more of a shotgun or cartridge powder, but works fine in most rifles.

westrayer · Sep 7, 2024

I shoot FFFg Goex in my .50 cal flint. I also shot it in the several .54 cal guns that I have owned.
Pyrodex is harder to ignite, and I never found the need for it.
Cleaner and faster. An old Lyman book shows they achieved same velocity with 70 grains of FFFg as they did with 90 grains of FFg.
I know that measured charge is less than indicated when actually weighed. An adjustable measure is well worth the few $$$. Get one that has graduations for 5 grain increments. Start around 50 grains and go up. Try tighter patches as well. I go up in charge based on what an individual gun prefers. I find my bullets impact higher as charge increases but then groups open up and impact off to the side. This shows me that the charge is too heavy.

Ed C. · Sep 7, 2024

The actual measured amount is not that important. Use a brass measure that gets you in the ball park. What is important is that you use the same method, loading the same amount each time as you go through your load development. I don't care if my 60 grain load may actually be 58gn. or 62gn. as long as I load the same each time and it works. If you ever get the flasks with the various sized spouts you will find they come up short due to the amount of volume your fingertip will displace when loading it. Using FFFg black powder for both revolvers and rifles is pretty common and works fine. Keep life simple!

nkbj · Sep 7, 2024

Once finding a volume of which ever powder that works, just carve yourself a measure from wood or antler, large diameter copper tubing or a piece of bamboo, whatever. Put it on a cord and attach it to however you carry your kit.

N.Y. Yankee · Sep 7, 2024

Use the brass powder measure and forget the Lee kit. The measure is calibrated to throw that approximate amount of true black powder (ex. setting of 60 should be just about 60 grains of black powder). Pyrodex is a different powder and is "lighter" than black. Use the same setting on your brass measure and dont worry about what a grain scale would say. That is measuring by volume, not by grains. Clean soon after shooting.

fireman1 · Sep 7, 2024

ZUG · Sep 7, 2024

My .45 caliber rifle is my favorite caliber to shoot. I use 3-F black powder in all rifle calibers up to .54 then it's 2-F. No need to use the Lee dippers since you got the adjustable brass measurer. In my .45 caliber rifle I found that a 0.440" lead ball with a 0.015" - 0.018" pillowing ticking patch with a GOOD lube on top of a 60 grain charge of 3-F GOEX black powder is MY go-to accuracy load. You can start with 40 grains and go up to 70 grains and see what works good in your rifle to give you the best accuracy. If you are hunting deer size game then I would start at 55 grains.
When using an approved substitute black powder you will need to reduce the charge amount by about 10% to get the approximately same pressure/velocity as real black powder charge. Good luck and be safe - have fun. :thumb:

bud in pa · Sep 7, 2024

I use a 20 gauge smoothbore (62 cal.) I shoot 70 gr of 3f with round ball and 70 gr. of 1f for shot. The 1F gives me better patterns.

Loyalist Dave · Sep 8, 2024

20gaugecalvary said:
Thank you for the reply. Yeah, I heard that general rule of thumb regarding the caliber and grain size. Can I ask why you're using 3FG powder in a rifle, if 3FG is for pistols? Thanks.

3Fg is fine for rifles too. You get more consistent measure and cleaner burn

LD

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