I have to rethink the spare cylinder idea

Ed C. · Oct 26, 2024

I don't ride horses and have never been in battle on one but it seems to me this reloading on a moving horse takes a good bit of concentration. If you are sitting up on horse not really paying attention to your surroundings and the enemy is around you will be a prime target...goodbye. I think I'd rather get to good cover where I could stop and quickly reload but I imagine that back then it was the same as now....there is the right way, the wrong way, and the Army way of doing things.

nick_1 · Oct 26, 2024

Actually unless it was a raid most larger engagements in the civil war the union calvary dismounted and fought from cover on the ground. The 7 shot Spencer carbine made them a formidable force. The start of Gettysburg is very well documented example.

TNGhost · Oct 26, 2024

Dark Angel said:
Saw M1-M2 carbines. In fact, I carried and M2. Full size Garands, NOPE! Was all over that country, trucking supplies and such, for a while working a TMP. In fact, in one Montagnard village, saw a match lock rifle. As for C&B at the OK Corral, C&B would have probably still been around, but in this clip. the caps were clearly visible on the nipples. Even by that time, rim-fire cartridges were becoming a rarity with just a few 'old' .44 Henery's around.

As far as the cap and ball thing, it is very possible them using C&B revolvers in 1881, That is only 15 years beyond the civil war and there were plenty of them around. Some even favored them with an extra "conversion" cylinder for when cartridges were available. The .45 Colt was not even invented until 1872 and not in widespread use for a couple years after that.

Remember smokeless wasn't going to be around for a couple of years yet and not in widespread use until quite a while later. And we are talking about the "wild west" so most of these frontier towns were remote and didn't necessarily have a steady continuous supply of cartridges, but loose black powder and lead was always available in most towns of any decent size.

Remember Matty's "Colt's Dragoon" in True Grit? I'd say The Duke's cartridge guns may have been more out of place in that movie than her C&B, being it was set in 1870, a scant five years after the WBTS. Remember it wasn't until that year or actually December 11, 1869 that S&W's patent on bored through cylinders ran out. So, there would have been no Colt cartridge revolvers until the very year that movie was set in, and to have them in quantity that far away from the manufacturing facility that quick in the late 1800s, is dubious.

WalnutRed · Oct 27, 2024

If you get away from Hollywood and period photos with obvious studio props I think carrying more than one pistol was rare in the west. There are a few references to So and So carrying two pistols. Which implies that was an exception, not the norm. I can see a desire for a spare cylinder though. You get caught in a couple days of drenching rain and don't trust the loads in your carry gun. Clearing the loads by firing would simply tell everyone you're location. Swapping cylinders with your carefully stored cylinder until you can clear and clean your main cylinder makes sense.

nick_1 · Oct 27, 2024

It makes sense to us but it is not documented that it was done at the time.

Whitworth · Oct 27, 2024

Go to an antique gun show and look at all the cap and ball pistols. Shouldn't there be more examples with an accompanying spare cylinder if it was so common? YMMV

nick_1 · Oct 27, 2024

the only one I am aware of coming with a spare cylinder is the Paterson which did not have a loading lever. The only first hand report of combat with the paterson that I have read was early rangers fighting Comanches. they charged and emptied both pistols from horseback at which point the Comanches ran away.

Bad Karma · Oct 27, 2024

TNGhost said:
As far as the cap and ball thing, it is very possible them using C&B revolvers in 1881, That is only 15 years beyond the civil war and there were plenty of them around. Some even favored them with an extra "conversion" cylinder for when cartridges were available. The .45 Colt was not even invented until 1872 and not in widespread use for a couple years after that.

Remember smokeless wasn't going to be around for a couple of years yet and not in widespread use until quite a while later. And we are talking about the "wild west" so most of these frontier towns were remote and didn't necessarily have a steady continuous supply of cartridges, but loose black powder and lead was always available in most towns of any decent size.

Remember Matty's "Colt's Dragoon" in True Grit? I'd say The Duke's cartridge guns may have been more out of place in that movie than her C&B, being it was set in 1870, a scant five years after the WBTS. Remember it wasn't until that year or actually December 11, 1869 that S&W's patent on bored through cylinders ran out. So, there would have been no Colt cartridge revolvers until the very year that movie was set in, and to have them in quantity that far away from the manufacturing facility that quick in the late 1800s, is dubious.

The average person didn’t have anything like the resources of an average American today. You don’t just chuck a $20 pistol in favor of a 25 dollar pistol when you’re not making that much in a month. We’re all gun cranks here and we can appreciate new and improved firearms but unless you made your living as a professional gunman it made a lot of sense to hang on to that Dragoon until you could afford the luxury of a replacement.

AlexB · Oct 27, 2024

Bad Karma said:
The average person didn’t have anything like the resources of an average American today. You don’t just chuck a $20 pistol in favor of a 25 dollar pistol when you’re not making that much in a month. We’re all gun cranks here and we can appreciate new and improved firearms but unless you made your living as a professional gunman it made a lot of sense to hang on to that Dragoon until you could afford the luxury of a replacement.

That and new tech is always held in suspicion until it has proven itself.
The first cartridge guns were not without their own issues.

Bad Karma · Oct 28, 2024

AlexB said:
That and new tech is always held in suspicion until it has proven itself.
The first cartridge guns were not without their own issues.

I’m not convinced these plastic guns will ever catch on… the 1860 Colt Army is just the highest and best expression of the gunmakers art.

Flint1 · Oct 28, 2024

Whitworth said:
Go to an antique gun show and look at all the cap and ball pistols. Shouldn't there be more examples with an accompanying spare cylinder if it was so common? YMMV

It sounds like you're referencing old originals. Most probably if they had spare cylinders they would have been separated from the guns eons ago. That would be almost like finding the shoulder stock with an original military issue Colt M1860 Army. I've been a Civil War collector for almost 44 years now. A couple years ago I was fortunate enough to find at a reasonable price a M1855 Pistol Carbine. If one could find the original shoulder stock it would cost as much as the pistol. Since Colt serial numbered the cylinders to match other parts on their guns I wonder if they would have had matching serial numbers on any spare cylinders.

nick_1 · Oct 28, 2024

the only colt pistol I am aware of that came with a spare cylinder is the Paterson which had no loading lever.

AlexB · Oct 28, 2024

My 1858 replicas did not come with spare cylinders but every one has one now and a pouch to carry it.
Been carrying a capped and loaded cylinder in said pouch for almost a year now and it hasn't gone off yet on my belt.

nick_1 · Oct 28, 2024

heck. I have 3 spares for my 1858. There is just no evidence that this was done in the 1860s or 70's in America. And NO, Pale rider is not evidence.

AlexB · Oct 28, 2024

nick_1 said:
heck. I have 3 spares for my 1858. There is just no evidence that this was done in the 1860s or 70's in America. And NO, Pale rider is not evidence.

I am with you on the movie thought.
My point is if you and I do it for fun why wouldn't they when it was for life and death?

nick_1 · Oct 28, 2024

Because spare cylinders were not a thing. They hadn't thought of it and the cylinders were not readily available. You cant look at something from history and inject your knowledge into it. You have to think what did they know. That's why Monday morning quarterbacking doesn't work.

AlexB · Oct 28, 2024

That doesn't make any sense to me I reckon.
For people that carried multiple horses,rifles,pistols and tools.

Widows Son · Oct 28, 2024

We are all enthusiastic about black powder shooting, and by extension, history…and that’s a very good thing.

I think honest civilians rarely got into the big shootouts that Hollywood has been portraying. The Old West has always been mythologised and romanticised. The Victorian dime novels and the modern movies were/are sensational entertainment.

A self defence situation back then is like now. You use your good sense and avoid trouble; and if it comes to lethal force, it’s only a few shots. Well within the capability of the rounds in the cylinder.

Quick reloading is much more applicable to soldiers than it is to citizens.

.

nick_1 · Oct 28, 2024

if you tried switching colt cylinders in the heat of battle it would not take long to lose your wedge. there were a heck of a lot more colts than Remingtons. Heck there are many more replica Rimingtons than there ever was originals. the most famous charecter from the old west known as a Remington guy was Buffalo Bill Cody. no spare cylinders and pouches in the Buffalow Bill museum in Cody Wyoming.

Malamute · Oct 28, 2024

A couple of thoughts.

Isnt the screw supposed to keep the wedge from coming out? The repros dont seem to do that reliably.

Its astounding how many more recent guns end up without bolts and magazines, and spare cylinders for the rimfire rounds. Its not surprising that even if spare cylinders were somewhat common that few or none stayed with the guns.

Charles Russell, the western artist, spent most of his life in Montana, from 1880 to when he passed in 1926. Besides his art, he wrote quite a lot. Many of his stories were obviously fun and tall tales, many others very much not fun, but based on many things he heard firsthand from his many friends that spent their lives on the Montana frontier. If any arent familiar with his stories, they are quite good reading, and they are available online. The gutenburg site has Trails Plowed Under among other books. Part of the reason to mention this, he commented to the effect that if there were as many gunfights as the even earliest films suggest, the red men would have re-inherited the country long ago.

https://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks07/0700941h.html

Yes, its all good fun in films, but not very close to common reality. There were some wild times and places, but it wasnt the norm everywhere and all the time. Most people wont put up with that nonsense for very long.

I have to rethink the spare cylinder idea

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