Asking for help with a Rifle Shoppe Baker Rifle: groups at 50 yards have become dreadful.

wahkahchimaol.com · Tuesday at 12:45 AM

I am struggling with creating accuracy with a Rifle Shoppe Baker .62 caliber rifle. I have about 85 rounds downrange so far out of a new barrel. The gun itself looks superb, and the bore appears to be pristine. But since I began shooting it last year, its accuracy has steadily gotten worse. It began by printing 6” groups at 50 yards. Now it prints 24” groups and some shots miss the cardboard. 24" rested at 50 yards. Yikes! My shooting with other rifles remains accurate. Rested, I can still shoot 1” with an AR. I have retained the same load throughout this: 95 grains FFG, .600 ball, 0.020 Oxyoke patch. Nothing has changed except the shot groups at 50 yards and beyond have expanded. What might be happening here? Since this is a hook-breech gun with captive wedges I'm wondering it the breech isn't settling. Should I experiment with shims? Thanks in advance for any information

ArmorerRoy · Tuesday at 12:54 AM

I you have not changed the bullets, powder charge, or patches then the only variable I can think of is that your not getting the rifling clean enough. Fill in the rifling with enough powder fouling and you have a smooth bore. A light needs to be dropped in to inspect the rifling. If you are cleaning it to a like new condition then I have no idea why it’s no longer capable of any accuracy.

Mattox Forge · Tuesday at 6:50 AM

wahkahchimaol.com said:
I am struggling with creating accuracy with a Rifle Shoppe Baker .62 caliber rifle. I have about 85 rounds downrange so far out of a new barrel. The gun itself looks superb, and the bore appears to be pristine. But since I began shooting it last year, its accuracy has steadily gotten worse. It began by printing 6” groups at 50 yards. Now it prints 24” groups and some shots miss the cardboard. 24" rested at 50 yards. Yikes! My shooting with other rifles remains accurate. Rested, I can still shoot 1” with an AR. I have retained the same load throughout this: 95 grains FFG, .600 ball, 0.020 Oxyoke patch. Nothing has changed except the shot groups at 50 yards and beyond have expanded. What might be happening here? Since this is a hook-breech gun with captive wedges I'm wondering it the breech isn't settling. Should I experiment with shims? Thanks in advance for any information

I have one of these too and am having similar problems using almost an identical load. I have been trying .595 balls as well. The patches are never intact. There are always holes, which makes me wonder if they are getting frayed or cut when being loaded.

What brand of powder are you using? I found there were huge differences in the velocity performance depending on the powder brand. I got 1150 up to 1500fps with the same charge volume depending on brand. The only powders that sort of grouped at all (~6" at 25 yards!) were the ones at the lower velocities.

i can't detect any obvious burrs at the crown, but there is a very crisp transition between the bevel and the rifling lands.

Mike

PathfinderNC · Tuesday at 7:12 AM

Very well could be “operator error”.
I was having horrid groups on a bench rest. A friend observed me shooting with the barrel just resting atop the gun rest, unsecured and told me to hold the forearm of the rifle (as if I was shooting offhand) and then rest my hand on the rifle rest.
Bingo.
Stabilize the rifle. The kick will definitely throw your shot off unless you hold that baby down.
Try it

Ps- perhaps try another caliber ball. with my .62 rifle I use .610 round ball and .018 spit patch. It’s a good combo for this gun. I can ship out a few to you to try out if you can’t get any.

rich pierce · Tuesday at 7:13 AM

If patches are shredded, there are a few causes that need to be explored. First, they can be shredded by a very tight combo of patch and ball that is hard to start. For this, polish the crown or use a less tight combo.

Next, a bore can get rough in a hurry. Polish that bore with 4-0 steel wool “patches”, or scotchbrite using a small jag. Is it hard to load?

A too loose patch/ball combo or too powerful a load can cause blow by and burning.

Shredded patches cannot coexist with accuracy.

dave_person · Tuesday at 7:16 AM

Hi,
As Mike wrote, check your patches after shooting. Are they torn or burned up? I had a Getz barrel that was terrible at first because the edges of the lands were too sharp and they cut up the patches during loading. The solution was lapping the bore many times with Scotch Bright pads and steel wool.

dave

Rancocas · Tuesday at 7:20 AM

All of the above is good advice. However, check that your barrel is tight in the stock. Maybe the barrel keys are loose, and the barrel moves around slightly.

ChuckJonesWagon · Tuesday at 7:34 AM

Good advice on checking the wedge pins. I built a rifle this past summer and grouping were bad until I tweaked the wedge pins to have zero barrel movement in the stock. The barrel should have zero movement if you squeeze the barrel/stock by hand.

ckwilli · Tuesday at 8:33 AM

PathfinderNC said:
Very well could be “operator error”.
I was having horrid groups on a bench rest. A friend observed me shooting with the barrel just resting atop the gun rest, unsecured and told me to hold the forearm of the rifle (as if I was shooting offhand) and then rest my hand on the rifle rest.
Bingo.
Stabilize the rifle. The kick will definitely throw your shot off unless you hold that baby down.
Try it

Ps- perhaps try another caliber ball. with my .62 rifle I use .610 round ball and .018 spit patch. It’s a good combo for this gun. I can ship out a few to you to try out if you can’t get any.

I’m not as well versed in ML shooting as some of you guys so I need to know. You said your barrel was resting on the bench rest. When shooting unmentionable rifles I never rest my barrel on anything because the harmonics will throw your shot off me cause larger groups. Is the same thing applicable to ML’s? I know a ML barrel is generally thicker but don’t know if that matters.

Grenadier1758 · Tuesday at 8:34 AM

Also check to be sure the sights are secure in their mounts.

PathfinderNC · Tuesday at 8:36 AM

ckwilli said:
I’m not as well versed in ML shooting as some of you guys so I need to know. You said your barrel was resting on the bench rest. When shooting unmentionable rifles I never rest my barrel on anything because the harmonics will throw your shot off me cause larger groups. Is the same thing applicable to ML’s? I know a ML barrel is generally thicker but don’t know if that matters.

Yes, I’m told by several folks who know way more than I, that barrel harmonics do indeed impact accuracy with muzzleloading barrels. The correct loads, barrel stability, and so forth will all have direct affect on that. Dialing in a new rifle is a long game!
Regarding how to hold the gun on a bench rest, I have seen ML’s being fired with no hand grip forward the trigger and they preformed quite well! But my own personal experience is that securing the forearm gives me a hundred percent improvement. With my .62 I am hitting torso size targets at 200 yards rather consistently, which I’m happily surprised at.

bldtrailer · Tuesday at 9:28 AM

start with a supported bench rest then try a load at 25 to get on paper , move to 50 try the load (I don't care what place on the target it hits as long as it groups) then change ONLY one part of the load at a time and shoot a group , thicker patch, lube, ball size, powder charge ...... you may have to polish the bore if a cut barrel to get rid of the micro burs that cut patching till smoothed
only after finding

load workup target after months of trying different loads, get

a great load then move the sights / same rifle after finding load and sighting in at 100yrds 2 high filed rear sight on with lower 3

flintlocks are not like other rifles and you need to take YOU out of the misses supported bench and learning to ignore the flash at your face is a part of it

ckwilli · Tuesday at 9:32 AM

PathfinderNC said:
Yes, I’m told by several folks who know way more than I, that barrel harmonics do indeed impact accuracy with muzzleloading barrels. The correct loads, barrel stability, and so forth will all have direct affect on that. Dialing in a new rifle is a long game!
Regarding how to hold the gun on a bench rest, I have seen ML’s being fired with no hand grip forward the trigger and they preformed quite well! But my own personal experience is that securing the forearm gives me a hundred percent improvement. With my .62 I am hitting torso size targets at 200 yards rather consistently, which I’m happily surprised at.

I hand load for almost all of my unmentionables except for one. Ironically the one I don’t load for is the most accurate of them all. It has a factory installed device to counter harmonics. I wasn’t sure how much harmonics came into play with a ML rifle.

Flint62Smoothie · Tuesday at 9:34 AM

KEY question - what barrel twist did you get? The original had a sloooooooow twist of 1 in 120", and not the typical roundball twist of 1 in 66" or thereabouts.

FWIW 2 guys at my BP Club built rifled Bakers from TRS kits and it took them WEEKS of experimenting to get results they liked with that slow twist. I will tell you that they tested many different patch mateirals or thicknesses and I recall from 70 to > 100-grain loads. And if I remember correctly, both are shooting around 90-grains now.

I'll try to get their load recipes ... I'll email them now ...

Flint62Smoothie · Tuesday at 9:48 AM

ckwilli said:
I wasn’t sure how much harmonics came into play with a ML rifle.

Harmonics? With BP? Well I can tell firsthand the effect can be HUGE! It also occurs whether the BP arm be a rifle or smoothbore.

Rather than detract from this post focusing on the Bakers, I'll just refer you to some links you can look at later, showing pictorial proof of the effect of the load and harmonics on the MZL barrels. I do the similar testing to EVERY BP arm I own in order to "shoot from the nodes" and wring out the maximum accuracy potential possible.

Last year: https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...d-development’-to-find-the-best-group.169960/

And well back to 2013: https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/load-development-for-54-fusil.87599/

ckwilli · Tuesday at 9:55 AM

Flint62Smoothie said:
Harmonics? With BP? Well I can tell firsthand the effect can be HUGE! It also occurs whether the BP arm be a rifle or smoothbore.

View attachment 361544

Rather than detract from this post focusing on the Bakers, I'll just refer you to some links you can look at later, showing pictorial proof of the effect of the load and harmonics on the MZL barrels. I do the similar testing to EVERY BP arm I own in order to "shoot from the nodes" and wring out the maximum accuracy potential possible.

Last year: https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/importance-of-‘load-development’-to-find-the-best-group.169960/

And well back to 2013: https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/load-development-for-54-fusil.87599/

Thanks!!

Mattox Forge · Tuesday at 11:17 AM

Flint62Smoothie said:
KEY question - what barrel twist did you get? The original had a sloooooooow twist of 1 in 120", and not the typical roundball twist of 1 in 66" or thereabouts.

FWIW 2 guys at my BP Club built rifled Bakers from TRS kits and it took them WEEKS of experimenting to get results they liked with that slow twist. I will tell you that they tested many different patch mateirals or thicknesses and I recall from 70 to > 100-grain loads. And if I remember correctly, both are shooting around 90-grains now.

I'll try to get their load recipes ... I'll email them now ...

I would love to see their load receipts. Especially if they can include the brand of powder they were using.

Yes, the later batches sent from TRS have Colerain .615 land diameters and a 1 in 120 twist. A .610 ball with a patch thicker than .010 will not work well.

I agree that stockfit, barrel harmonics and marksmanship skill will have a big effect, but I am pretty sure the issues here are 1st order problems like cut and or blown out patches. I could send you pictures of mine, but they would make everyone throw up.

The bore and twist are historically accurate. However, the the bores are rough, so I think polishing is definitely warrented. That's my next step. I am also going to try .023 (12 ounce) denim patches with .595 pure lead balls. Rob, from British Muzzleloaders reports on his YouTube channel that he gets good results with this patch and ball combination and 97.5 grains of 2f. I suspect he is using Goex, as the velocities I was getting with Goex 2f were similar to what he was getting, 1150fps. He was getting 1170, but I don't think his patches were blowing out.

Mike

wahkahchimaol.com · Tuesday at 11:41 AM

thanks everyone! Great advice! I appreciate all the ideas. Some of the key thoughts:
1. I think the barrel polishing is a superb idea. Can't hurt.
2. Listing successful loads for others is wonderful.
3. More welcome.
Thanks again!

Pete

Flint62Smoothie · Tuesday at 12:39 PM

Pete @wahkahchimaol.com , youse asks ... youse gets ... as I got some input for you:

Baker Friend #1
"Accuracy for the both of us with these ultra-slow twist rifles has admittedly been sporadic. We each have good days and bad days, most times being unexplainable, but that's what keeps us coming back.

We have found that these rifles do like longer distances. Have him graduate up to 100-yards and longer, even to 200-yards and he might be pleasantly surprised. My load is a 0.610" diameter Lyman ball, 95-grains of 2Fg Schuetzen powder and a .026" thick pillow ticking patch with peanut oil lube. Hope that helps your friend."

Baker Friend #2
"These sloooow twist Bakers definitely like longer range, dunno why but they do. My load is different than his, being a .600 Lyman RB and a .030" (yes, thirty thousandths) patch of washed denim (which is very soft) lubed with peanut oil, over 95 grains of 2F (Goex or Schuetzen, no matter).

Your friend's patch sounds way too thin for the deep Baker rifling! We have occasionally, but not consistently, shot a fair groups at 50 yards (4") but soon got quite bored and now rarely shoot anything under 180-yards (furthest berm on range3) where these rifles really begin to come into their own.

Note also that the barrels seem to get fouled fast and accuracy diminishes usually between 6 to 10 shots (although, but not always, depending on humidity etc). And like he said, we have very good days followed by fairly inaccurate days for no discernable reason."

SPQR70AD · Tuesday at 1:26 PM

PathfinderNC said:
Very well could be “operator error”.
I was having horrid groups on a bench rest. A friend observed me shooting with the barrel just resting atop the gun rest, unsecured and told me to hold the forearm of the rifle (as if I was shooting offhand) and then rest my hand on the rifle rest.
Bingo.
Stabilize the rifle. The kick will definitely throw your shot off unless you hold that baby down.
Try it

Ps- perhaps try another caliber ball. with my .62 rifle I use .610 round ball and .018 spit patch. It’s a good combo for this gun. I can ship out a few to you to try out if you can’t get any.

I always thought the kick happened after the bullet exited the barrel. he might be anticipating the recoil as he pulls the trigger

Asking for help with a Rifle Shoppe Baker Rifle: groups at 50 yards have become dreadful.

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