Broken frizzen, is this a common thing?

About three weeks ago, I was shooting my Pedersoli Kentucky rifle in .32, and the frizzen snapped. Now, the gun itself is 40 years old, according to the stampings on it, they put it as being made in 1984. I bought the gun used last fall, and for some reason, it came with a CVA frizzen on it. I bought the new frizzen from VTI gun parts in June, and it's Pedersoli. Nothing was done to this frizzen except it was taken from the package and then put on the lock in that order. I didn't heat it, touch it, harden it, etc. It went on the way I got it. I think the gun had maybe 60 firings when the frizzen snapped. It sparked great, very reliable. VTI was great about it and sent me another one, but it looks just like the one before, which some have told me didn't look properly heat treated because it's a cast part. So can I expect the next one to give up the ghost in only the same number of shots? Even though it was worn out, the CVA frizzen took a heck of a lot more punishment from its appearance then the Pedersoli frizzen did. I've been told this is a fairly common thing. Since L & R does not offer a lock for this gun (I asked) is this something I have to look forward to from Pedersoli's parts now? I know the Pedersoli frizzen cost almost $60 and a spare frizzen for my Traditions Kentucky doesn't even cost $30, and the Traditions Kentucky that I bought used has more shots on it then the new Pedersoli frizzen lasted and it's still going strong without any issues.

I've never heard of frizzens snapping off as common. Properly made, they should last for a long, long, time and not break. Sounds like a defective one to me.

Rare. Bad tempering job.

David LaPell said:

..... VTI was great about it and sent me another one, but it looks just like the one before, which some have told me didn't look properly heat treated because it's a cast part. So can I expect the next one to give up the ghost in only the same number of shots?

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It's possible if it was a defect in the process and not just a defect in a single part.

About fifty years of shooting flintlock never had that happen

David LaPell said:

About three weeks ago, I was shooting my Pedersoli Kentucky rifle in .32, and the frizzen snapped. Now, the gun itself is 40 years old, according to the stampings on it, they put it as being made in 1984. I bought the gun used last fall, and for some reason, it came with a CVA frizzen on it. I bought the new frizzen from VTI gun parts in June, and it's Pedersoli. Nothing was done to this frizzen except it was taken from the package and then put on the lock in that order. I didn't heat it, touch it, harden it, etc. It went on the way I got it. I think the gun had maybe 60 firings when the frizzen snapped. It sparked great, very reliable. VTI was great about it and sent me another one, but it looks just like the one before, which some have told me didn't look properly heat treated because it's a cast part. So can I expect the next one to give up the ghost in only the same number of shots? Even though it was worn out, the CVA frizzen took a heck of a lot more punishment from its appearance then the Pedersoli frizzen did. I've been told this is a fairly common thing. Since L & R does not offer a lock for this gun (I asked) is this something I have to look forward to from Pedersoli's parts now? I know the Pedersoli frizzen cost almost $60 and a spare frizzen for my Traditions Kentucky doesn't even cost $30, and the Traditions Kentucky that I bought used has more shots on it then the new Pedersoli frizzen lasted and it's still going strong without any issues.

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Sure appears to be an improper heat treatment issue as others have suggested.

I would be concerned about the second replacement frizzen having the same issue, as I would imagine Pedersoli frizzens are manufactured in lots or batches, and if one has a heat treat issue, they all have the same issue, though this is just speculation on my part.

If it were my frizzen, I would temper it for an hour or so at 375°F+/-. I would then draw the toe area back to a blue color (600°F+/-) so that it wasn’t as brittle as the first one.

I’ve only heat treated a dozen or so frizzens, so just a hobbyist and by no means any kind expert. You may want to wait for someone like @dave_person to chime in on the topic before doing anything.

David LaPell said:

About three weeks ago, I was shooting my Pedersoli Kentucky rifle in .32, and the frizzen snapped. Now, the gun itself is 40 years old, according to the stampings on it, they put it as being made in 1984. I bought the gun used last fall, and for some reason, it came with a CVA frizzen on it. I bought the new frizzen from VTI gun parts in June, and it's Pedersoli. Nothing was done to this frizzen except it was taken from the package and then put on the lock in that order. I didn't heat it, touch it, harden it, etc. It went on the way I got it. I think the gun had maybe 60 firings when the frizzen snapped. It sparked great, very reliable. VTI was great about it and sent me another one, but it looks just like the one before, which some have told me didn't look properly heat treated because it's a cast part. So can I expect the next one to give up the ghost in only the same number of shots? Even though it was worn out, the CVA frizzen took a heck of a lot more punishment from its appearance then the Pedersoli frizzen did. I've been told this is a fairly common thing. Since L & R does not offer a lock for this gun (I asked) is this something I have to look forward to from Pedersoli's parts now? I know the Pedersoli frizzen cost almost $60 and a spare frizzen for my Traditions Kentucky doesn't even cost $30, and the Traditions Kentucky that I bought used has more shots on it then the new Pedersoli frizzen lasted and it's still going strong without any issues.

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Started in the 60s shootin flint. Have several and never had a broken frizzen.
Larry

The break is possibly from a casting flaw in that particular part. A friend had a frizzen, on a nearly new, Kibler lock break, in a similar situation. The frizzen was replaced, rather quickly, by Kibler. IMHO, it's rare to have a frizzen break, but it can happen. That said, it wouldn't hurt to temper the new frizzen, as mentioned above, However, I suggest tempering to 350 degrees, before tempering the tail and pivot to a blue, being careful to avoid allowing the blue color to run across the pan cover and overly temper, and soften, the bottom of the face of the frizzen.

I agree with J.D. on the part had a casting flaw not a heat treat issue. If Pedersoli frizzens had a heat treat issue then you would be hearing more about this from a bunch of other people. Replace it and keep a record of how many shots you get out of the replacement part.

Never had that happen. Here’s your answer: Black. Powder. Gunsmith. Them’s is the folks what get paid to do that kinda thing.

David LaPell said:

About three weeks ago, I was shooting my Pedersoli Kentucky rifle in .32, and the frizzen snapped. Now, the gun itself is 40 years old, according to the stampings on it, they put it as being made in 1984. I bought the gun used last fall, and for some reason, it came with a CVA frizzen on it. I bought the new frizzen from VTI gun parts in June, and it's Pedersoli. Nothing was done to this frizzen except it was taken from the package and then put on the lock in that order. I didn't heat it, touch it, harden it, etc. It went on the way I got it. I think the gun had maybe 60 firings when the frizzen snapped. It sparked great, very reliable. VTI was great about it and sent me another one, but it looks just like the one before, which some have told me didn't look properly heat treated because it's a cast part. So can I expect the next one to give up the ghost in only the same number of shots? Even though it was worn out, the CVA frizzen took a heck of a lot more punishment from its appearance then the Pedersoli frizzen did. I've been told this is a fairly common thing. Since L & R does not offer a lock for this gun (I asked) is this something I have to look forward to from Pedersoli's parts now? I know the Pedersoli frizzen cost almost $60 and a spare frizzen for my Traditions Kentucky doesn't even cost $30, and the Traditions Kentucky that I bought used has more shots on it then the new Pedersoli frizzen lasted and it's still going strong without any issues.

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I’ve seen this happen multiple times from accidental drops in shipment and in the field.

A timely topic. Yesterday (of course, after close of business for the weekend), I received my first Traditions kit, a .45 Kentucky flintlock pistol. It contained a broken frizzen. It may be rare, but when it happens to you it's a 100% thing. I emailed Traditions customer service; we'll see how it gets resolved.

Stuff the new frizzen end in a potato up to the pan and heat the whole pan and toe to a deep purple quickly with an O/A torch, as soon as it gets purple, quench it in oil to stop the heat migrating to the frizzen face. If it sparks well as is, don't anneal the frizzen face at all.

That sounds like a good idea, but all I have is map gas. Will that get it hot enough? And any recommendations as to the type of oil?

Any kind of oil. It isn't really necessary to quench the pan but you need to stop the heat once the proper annealing temperature is reached or it can boil off the moisture in the potato and start to anneal the frizzen face, or continue annealing the pan and toe past the desired spring temper point and make it so soft that it bends. Dance the flame on the pan and watch the color propagate. The surface will turn colors almost instantly from the intense OA heat but not affect the internals, it's best to try and heat the part through and through to the right temper (purple) but not take so long that the heat migrates to the part you want to stay hard. This takes practice. Alternately, if you have a lead casting setup, heat your lead until it just all gets molten and stick the tail of the frizzen into the mixture until the junction of pan cover and frizzen face turns purple (use the potato for a heat sink). This will ensure through-heating of the pan cover and tail without making it so soft that the screw hole wallows out or the tail is so soft that it galls on the frizzen spring or bends with use.

Very helpful. I do have a lead pot, so I'll try that method. Thanks!

And since were talking about annealing, and the pistol is not yet built, are there any other parts of the lock that I should anneal now?

Had it happen to me today at the range. Kibler answered the phone right away and a new one is all but on the mail, but it scared the hell out of me to have a piece of metal hit me on top of the head as the smoke was still clearing. Never had it happen before today.

Glad you're ok. In my case, Traditions never bothered to respond, but at least the vendor (Deer Creek Products) sent me an unbranded frizzen. I was expecting a Traditions brand replacement - apparently I was over-optimistic. I did the heat treatment to it as IanH recommended, using the lead pot. We'll see what happens.

I would think it occurs more than we think. Maybe not a "common" occurrence but one that happens. I would guess there are thousands of locks and lock parts that get made every year. They can't all be good.

FWIW, and speaking of products that aren't always perfect......I had an old CVA barrel sitting in my shop for well over ten years. I don't recall where I even got it. So, I decided to use the barrel and make a youth flintlock rifle via cutting the barrel down to about 30". I then decided to take the cut off barrel and fashion a hook breech out of it.

Fortune was on my side as I just put the barrel in my vice....picked a few flats out, and cut it with a hack saw. And to my surprise, if you look at the barrel cut, you can see a rather large occlusion in it!! So, I deemed the barrel unsafe, bought a new barrel, and use this old one for fashioning what I can or want with it. Makes for a great hook-breech setup though!!