Was Dutch right about wiping between shots?

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I was somewhat remiss in my earlier posting in that I addressed Dutch's System as it applies to shooting percussion rifles. There are considerations that can be applied to flint lock rifles and also those with chambered breeches. @Mike in FL is correct that even loose patch and jag combinations will push some fouling ahead of the wiping jag. Here I am going to apply a few definitions for my take on the system. The swabbing of the barrel is done with a very wet patch and the time to swab the barrel is to clean the rifle after the shooting session is completed. All that moisture from swabbing won't be removed by a dry patch or two. Wiping is done with a damp patch with most of the moisture squeezed out. Even the combination of patch and jag that will slide down a clean barrel with just the weight of a metal working rod will push some fouling ahead of the jag and patch. The wiping jag will not remove all of the fouling from the grooves to the point the barrel is clean. The goal of the wiping patch and jag is to establish a consistent level of fouling in the bore from shot to shot. Wiping when the ball and patch become hard to load means that fouling is building up bit by bit to the point that bore conditions are not consistent. The impacts of successive shots are often higher from shot to shot until the bore is wiped and the impact point is lowered.

Ditch's System will apply to all ignition systems with respect to establishing ball size, patch material and patch lubricant. Dutch's System in its final form used a dry lubricant based on a water soluble oil in water dried in the patch. Using a dry patch on the ball will mean that the bore must be wiped between shots or the stuck ball as @LME observes is a certainty. LME's method works for him. Where we have to start making alterations to Dutch's System is an understanding of how to wipe the bore.

The classic flat or notched breech face: There is a flash channel either from the pan of a flint lock or from the nipple seat of the drum and nipple percussion lock directly into the powder chamber which is that column of powder between the breech face and the base of the patched ball (for some the base of the conical bullet). We have to prevent fouling from blocking that passage when we wipe between shots. We do that by two methods.
1. We have or working rod marked to stop the wipe about the powder column height from the breech face. Any fouling left as the wiping patch is pushed down the bore will remain above the flash channel or touch hole and be shot out with the next shot. [SECRET NOTE This is essentially what is done by the "never wipe" loaders using the wet patch on the ball and Minie' ball shooters loading their lubed bullets.] Using the wet patched ball as the wiping patch will remove most of the fouling from the bore, it is almost as effective as the wipe then load a patched ball for consistency. Using the wet patched ball as the wiping patch does work fine for woods walk reactive targets and silhouette shooting
2a. For flint locks we can pick the touch hole after loading. A soft wire pick, one of the dental floss tools, or a small brush for cleaning welding tips or paint sprayers will work. The quill of a bird's feather sized for touch hole will work if you just have to be authentic.
2b. For percussion locks, the blast from the ignition of the percussion cap blows the fouling in the flash channel out with the igniting powder charge.

The commonly encountered chambered breech: For a flint lock, there will normally be a direct touch hole into the chambered breech. For some flint chambers and percussion locks there will be an angled path from the touch hole then forward to the powder chamber. These are the most easily plugged with fouling as one wipes between shots as the wiping patch can't get into the chamber to clean out fouling. We have to rely on the ignition of the powder charge to keep that area somewhat clear. Since the chamber does not interface with the patched ball or bullet, we don't have to wipe that out during the shooting session. We just have to avoid filling the chamber and flash channel with fouling. Wipe the bore to the point where the ball sits on the powder.
1. Mark the loading/wiping rod at the length to about the top of the patched ball or bullet. Only wipe to that point
2. For a flint lock, the flexible dental flossing tool or the tip brush will keep the touch hole clean. The percussion cap will blow out the small amount of fouling.
Now we have to pay attention to the crusty ring that builds up at the base of the ball between the ball and the powder. If you are wiping past that crud ring, you are doing well. Sometimes you just have to wipe past the crusty ring to remove it and then a dry patch to pick up the pieces. It doesn't hurt to point the muzzle at the ground and bump the stock as LME suggests.
I know nothing about flint lock rifles ? I have never owned one and the ones I worked on were all percusion type. I appreciate you posting as I am sure someone would take my advice and have a flint lock rifle and get into some trouble? The vent hole clogging up could be a problem with flint lock rifles. The main thing I wanted to get across was if you use a dry patch before loading be careful with the dry patch they will get stuck if you don't pull it back a couple of inches every eight inches or so as you go down it allows the trash to fall away from the patch. I should add the patches are not real tight just snug!
 
Just to be a pain, I was close friends with Dutch since the late 70's and have used his system since then. The wipe for accuracy has to be done on a tight patch on a good fitting jag, as per his system. I used it for target, and rondyvoo matches, before being sidelined by a broken back, which precluded hunting, and later, off hand shooting, by needing a metal left arm after an accident. Losing Dutch was a hard personal blow to me, and miss my trips to St Louis to visit with him.
For casual accuracy, you can use whatever commercial patch grease, beaver snot, or home brew you like...It all works
 
I was somewhat remiss in my earlier posting in that I addressed Dutch's System as it applies to shooting percussion rifles. There are considerations that can be applied to flint lock rifles and also those with chambered breeches. @Mike in FL is correct that even loose patch and jag combinations will push some fouling ahead of the wiping jag. Here I am going to apply a few definitions for my take on the system. The swabbing of the barrel is done with a very wet patch and the time to swab the barrel is to clean the rifle after the shooting session is completed. All that moisture from swabbing won't be removed by a dry patch or two. Wiping is done with a damp patch with most of the moisture squeezed out. Even the combination of patch and jag that will slide down a clean barrel with just the weight of a metal working rod will push some fouling ahead of the jag and patch. The wiping jag will not remove all of the fouling from the grooves to the point the barrel is clean. The goal of the wiping patch and jag is to establish a consistent level of fouling in the bore from shot to shot. Wiping when the ball and patch become hard to load means that fouling is building up bit by bit to the point that bore conditions are not consistent. The impacts of successive shots are often higher from shot to shot until the bore is wiped and the impact point is lowered.

Ditch's System will apply to all ignition systems with respect to establishing ball size, patch material and patch lubricant. Dutch's System in its final form used a dry lubricant based on a water soluble oil in water dried in the patch. Using a dry patch on the ball will mean that the bore must be wiped between shots or the stuck ball as @LME observes is a certainty. LME's method works for him. Where we have to start making alterations to Dutch's System is an understanding of how to wipe the bore.

The classic flat or notched breech face: There is a flash channel either from the pan of a flint lock or from the nipple seat of the drum and nipple percussion lock directly into the powder chamber which is that column of powder between the breech face and the base of the patched ball (for some the base of the conical bullet). We have to prevent fouling from blocking that passage when we wipe between shots. We do that by two methods.
1. We have or working rod marked to stop the wipe about the powder column height from the breech face. Any fouling left as the wiping patch is pushed down the bore will remain above the flash channel or touch hole and be shot out with the next shot. [SECRET NOTE This is essentially what is done by the "never wipe" loaders using the wet patch on the ball and Minie' ball shooters loading their lubed bullets.] Using the wet patched ball as the wiping patch will remove most of the fouling from the bore, it is almost as effective as the wipe then load a patched ball for consistency. Using the wet patched ball as the wiping patch does work fine for woods walk reactive targets and silhouette shooting
2a. For flint locks we can pick the touch hole after loading. A soft wire pick, one of the dental floss tools, or a small brush for cleaning welding tips or paint sprayers will work. The quill of a bird's feather sized for touch hole will work if you just have to be authentic.
2b. For percussion locks, the blast from the ignition of the percussion cap blows the fouling in the flash channel out with the igniting powder charge.

The commonly encountered chambered breech: For a flint lock, there will normally be a direct touch hole into the chambered breech. For some flint chambers and percussion locks there will be an angled path from the touch hole then forward to the powder chamber. These are the most easily plugged with fouling as one wipes between shots as the wiping patch can't get into the chamber to clean out fouling. We have to rely on the ignition of the powder charge to keep that area somewhat clear. Since the chamber does not interface with the patched ball or bullet, we don't have to wipe that out during the shooting session. We just have to avoid filling the chamber and flash channel with fouling. Wipe the bore to the point where the ball sits on the powder.
1. Mark the loading/wiping rod at the length to about the top of the patched ball or bullet. Only wipe to that point
2. For a flint lock, the flexible dental flossing tool or the tip brush will keep the touch hole clean. The percussion cap will blow out the small amount of fouling.
Now we have to pay attention to the crusty ring that builds up at the base of the ball between the ball and the powder. If you are wiping past that crud ring, you are doing well. Sometimes you just have to wipe past the crusty ring to remove it and then a dry patch to pick up the pieces. It doesn't hurt to point the muzzle at the ground and bump the stock as LME suggests.
Very well said.
 
Did a bit more testing at 50yds today. Gun was a .36cal T/C Hawken with Rice barrel, load was .350rb 30g FFFg and RWS 1075+ .

Added Hoppe's black powder to the lineup, and diluted the Dawn/water to 5% instead of 40%. Again, 30+ shots without wiping, and no misfires.
Accuracy was decent and similar for all, but not quite as good as my dry patches and wiping, yet again the best results where with Simple-Green/ Alcohol, followed closely by windshield wiper fluid. The only other thing was the spit patches didn't do well at all today.

Below is the test target.

This is interesting, however the rifle should be zeroed for each different type of lube.

We need to remember extreme accuracy was achieved way before any type of system

Dawn and water

784B0A08-0677-4FEE-83FD-16018E8F1456.jpeg

905B0D88-72B3-4E4F-940F-A6BF6C64CEC1.jpeg
 
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I have a new englander .50 with a slightly pitted bore. Bought it for almost nothing. I get one hole accuracy at 50 yards with a peep sight. I weigh the round balls I use. I use no patch lube , spit, oil, ect. Completely dry. It’s a loose patch, pushes down with no struggle. But I use a wad of cream of wheat or a wool wad between the powder and ball. I believe that makes the black powder burn more completely. I wipe between shots with a lightly damp patch , both sides. But I must dismount the barrel after 15 shots or so for a thorough bucket of water cleaning, the Thomson center breech needs it or it’s misfire city.

Wiping, your pushing the fowling down into the breech area. That would drive me nuts
 
This is interesting, however the rifle should be zeroed for each different type of lube.

We need to remember extreme accuracy was achieved way before any type of system

Dawn and water

View attachment 364562
View attachment 364563
Things are comming together for me also.

Getting accuracy comparable to Dutch's dry patch system that I was using, using same patch material dampened with 50/50 Simple-Green/ Alcohol without wiping between shots. The bore is easier to clean and is waterless!

5 shots, @ 50yds .45cal T/C Hawken with 1:66 GM barrel, .495" RB, .017" #40 drill cloth moistened with 50/50 Simple-Green/ Alcohol, 40gr FFFg. RWS 1075+.
20241125_135519.jpg
 
Things are comming together for me also.

Getting accuracy comparable to Dutch's dry patch system that I was using, using same patch material dampened with 50/50 Simple-Green/ Alcohol without wiping between shots. The bore is easier to clean and is waterless!

5 shots, @ 50yds .45cal T/C Hawken with 1:66 GM barrel, .495" RB, .017" #40 drill cloth moistened with 50/50 Simple-Green/ Alcohol, 40gr FFFg. RWS 1075+.
View attachment 364585
Looks like you got it ! Once you know how to aim and work up a load it will come together!
 
I've been using that with vegetable oil in a Dutch’s fashion but maybe I'll try the simple green.
Just remember, it is only a cleaner /decreaser, it doesn't contain any oils, it actually remoes them, so when using it for cleaning after your shooting session, you NEED to follow-up with an oil patch. My shooting buddy who introduced me to it, uses 5w-20 synthetic motor oil, I have tried several oils, ballistol, mineral oil, CLP gun oil, Remoil, Barricade, 3in 1 machine oil, all seem to work equally fine, but I am currently testing chainsaw Chain/bar oil because the label states that its formulated with additives that prevent it from running like most oils, but cause it to adhear and stay in place on metal surfaces as a grease would.
 
Just remember, it is only a cleaner /decreaser, it doesn't contain any oils, it actually remoes them, so when using it for cleaning after your shooting session, you NEED to follow-up with an oil patch. My shooting buddy who introduced me to it, uses 5w-20 synthetic motor oil, I have tried several oils, ballistol, mineral oil, CLP gun oil, Remoil, Barricade, 3in 1 machine oil, all seem to work equally fine, but I am currently testing chainsaw Chain/bar oil because the label states that its formulated with additives that prevent it from running like most oils, but cause it to adhear and stay in place on metal surfaces as a grease would.
I'm going to use it as a shooting lube. As in shooting without wiping. For comparison with dawn and water.
 
Excellent shooting! The only thing left for you to do is shoot, shoot, shoot! LOL!
That's the plan! This was my first year muzzleloading. Purchased roughly double the amount of powder and caps I used this year, for the comming year or so.
 
54 SMR off hand 50yds 3 shots, no gimmicks were used to achieve accuracy, just a lifetime of practice,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
View attachment 364986
Shot a 25 shot off-hand match yesterday using my .36cal Hawken and Simple-Green / Alcohol to dampen patch, loading without wiping between shots. First time loading this way in a match, and everything went much quicker and easier.

Last ball went down as easily and smoothly as the first. Zero misfires or problems, accuracy was as good as I have ever shot offhand, was high score on three targets, scored 49 on two of them, and finished second place overall aggregate. It was our annual knife shoot, and won the knife as well.

20241201_104540.jpg
 
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My rifles spray bullets with a clean barrel. I always fire a fouling shot before a match to dirty bore and never punch the barrel until I am done shooting for the day. If I swab or clean barrel the first shot is always off mark.
 
Shot a 25 shot off-hand match yesterday using my .36cal Hawken and Simple-Green / Alcohol to dampen patch, loading without wiping between shots. First time loading this way in a match, and everything went much quicker and easier.

Last ball went down as easily and smoothly as the first. Zero misfires or problems, accuracy was as good as I have ever shot offhand, was high score on three targets, scored 49 on two of them, and finished second place overall aggregate. It was our annual knife shoot, and won the knife as well.

View attachment 365719
nice!
 
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