Conical for Walker

M. De Land · Dec 5, 2024

Been doing some thinking on wither or not to open the chambers on my Walker. Considering the profile of the existing chambers I'm concluding they are reamed for the heeled bullets that were often used in them historically. With that in mind I'm thinking the thing to do is to either buy the Eras Gone copy or cut a new design with a heeled base and blunt meplat with one grease groove and about 225-250 grains of weight. I've picked up some undersized molds over the years with bullet making ideas in mind as all that needs done is lathe centering and boring out the design ideas one has drawn up. Me thinks this a good place to put some of them small bullet molds to use. I've made a few molds from scratch and it's quite a project milling and fitting the handle mortice, making and fitting a sprue plate ,cutting the vent lines in the face and finally boring the cavity correctly figuring for alloy shrinkage when cooled.
The gun seems to shoot balls very well as is and has been showing some signs of good accuracy using the 210 grain ACP bullet I have run a preliminary test with. I'm thinking it will be a wiser choice to leave the chambers alone for now until exhausting more projectile trial choices. Interesting project this Walker.

M. De Land · Dec 5, 2024

M. De Land said:
Been doing some thinking on wither or not to open the chambers on my Walker. Considering the profile of the existing chambers I'm concluding they are reamed for the heeled bullets that were often used in them historically. With that in mind I'm thinking the thing to do is to either buy the Eras Gone copy or cut a new design with a heeled base and blunt meplat with one grease groove and about 225-250 grains of weight. I've picked up some undersized molds over the years with bullet making ideas in mind as all that needs done is lathe centering and boring out the design ideas one has draw up. Me thinks this a good place to put some of them to use.
The gun seems to shoot balls very well as is and has been showing some signs of good accuracy using the 210 grain ACP bullet i have run a preliminary test with. I'm thinking it will be a wiser choice to leave the chambers alone for now until exhausting more projectile trial choices. Interesting project this Walker.

I'm thinking while looking at the seated ACP bullets that the length is about right but all that room around the nose area could be filled with bullet alloy and taper into the meplat for an additional 20 or so grains of weight.
Note the .44 cal bullet on the left in the photo (350 grains) with almost parallel sides into the meplat. This is a friends design that he had Veril Smith of LBT molds cut for him. Veril called him back before cutting the mold to Dennis's drawing and told him it would probably tumble at distance but Dennis told him to make it any way. Dennis has tested it to 200 yards with not a hint of tipping let alone tumbling and says it is very accurate and a real game killer. LBT has since added Dennis's design to his mold catalog I was told. This is the profile I have in mind for the Walker but will have to modify the rammer nose to seat it squarely. Actually the thing to do is simply turn another replacement rammer leg to fit the meplat.

rodwha · Dec 5, 2024

Well,

M. De Land said:
I'm thinking while looking at the seated ACP bullets that the length is about right but all that room around the nose area could be filled with bullet alloy and taper into the meplat for an additional 20 or so grains of weight.
Note the .44 cal bullet on the left in the photo (350 grains) with almost parallel sides into the meplat. This is a friends design that he had Veril Smith of LBT molds cut for him. Veril called him back before cutting the mold to Dennis's drawing and told him it would probably tumble at distance but Dennis told him to make it any way. Dennis has tested it to 200 yards with not a hint of tipping let alone tumbling and says it is very accurate and a real game killer. LBT has since added Dennis's design to his mold catalog I was told. This is the profile I have in mind for the Walker but will have to modify the rammer nose to seat it squarely. Actually the thing to do is simply turn another replacement rammer leg to fit the meplat.

Well, I had created a short and heavy bullet with a huge meplat for my Ruger that someone tried in their Walker with 52 grns of Pyrodex P and it blew his chamber wall out.

My 285 grn WFN is on the far right sitting next to Kaido’s custom Lee 255 grn bullet for the Ruger. I created it to have very long driving bands to increase the pressure in my Ruger. It’s this bullet:

https://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-285C

maillemaker · Dec 5, 2024

rodwha said:
Well, I had created a short and heavy bullet with a huge meplat for my Ruger that someone tried in their Walker with 52 grns of Pyrodex P and it blew his chamber wall out.

Wow! I didn't know that was possible with modern Walkers and appropriate powder!

45D · Dec 5, 2024

maillemaker said:
Wow! I didn't know that was possible with modern Walkers and appropriate powder!

I think it was an older Walker, possibly an ASM ? rodwah probably remembers.

Mike

M. De Land · Dec 5, 2024

rodwha said:
Well,

Well, I had created a short and heavy bullet with a huge meplat for my Ruger that someone tried in their Walker with 52 grns of Pyrodex P and it blew his chamber wall out.

View attachment 366495

My 285 grn WFN is on the far right sitting next to Kaido’s custom Lee 255 grn bullet for the Ruger. I created it to have very long driving bands to increase the pressure in my Ruger. It’s this bullet:

https://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-285C

Good picture and information ! I would have loved to examined the blow up and question the shooter. I wonder about the load and bullet alone causing the blow up.
I need to get more information on what alloy Uberti and Pietta is using in their revolvers because if it's 8620 or equivalent as one distributor has suggested then I very much doubt the load alone would have caused the failure. I wonder if Beliveau or Blacky has any information on this ?

rodwha · Dec 5, 2024

45D said:
I think it was an older Walker, possibly an ASM ? rodwah probably remembers.

Mike

indeed it was an ASM.

rodwha · Dec 5, 2024

M. De Land said:
Good picture and information ! I would have loved to examined the blow up and question the shooter. I wonder about the load and bullet alone causing the blow up.
I need to get more information on what alloy Uberti and Pietta is using in their revolvers because if it's 8620 or equivalent as one distributor has suggested then I very much doubt the load alone would have caused the failure. I wonder if Beliveau or Blacky has any information on this ?

It was an ASM model. He told me his measure is set at 26 grns and so he doubled it. One shot and BOOM! It tore that chamber damn near clean off. He was lucky, as was the rest of his Walker as he was able to find another cylinder and got it working again.

rodwha · Dec 5, 2024

maillemaker said:
Wow! I didn't know that was possible with modern Walkers and appropriate powder!

52 grns seems like a lot. It’s hard to say when we all use measures that drop differently, but Pyrodex is highly compressible so…

I can get 35 grns of 3F T7 behind it in my Ruger, but I ended up with one I couldn’t fully seat. So 32.5 grns is my max. 32.5 grns of 3F Olde Eynsford weighs -35 grns.

M. De Land · Dec 5, 2024

rodwha said:
It was an ASM model. He told me his measure is set at 26 grns and so he doubled it. One shot and BOOM! It tore that chamber damn near clean off. He was lucky, as was the rest of his Walker as he was able to find another cylinder and got it working again.

He most likely had a casting inclusion in the cylinder steel. I've seen these in 4140 barrel steel before and although the barrel did not let go it made a seem that collapsed in a groove and part of a land. I had to re-barrel the rifle in it's original 45 2.1 cal. (45-70).

rodwha · Dec 5, 2024

M. De Land said:
He most likely had a casting inclusion in the cylinder steel. I've seen these in 4140 barrel steel before and although the barrel did not let go it made a seem that collapsed in a groove and part of a land. I had to re-barrel the rifle in it's original 45 2.1 cal. (45-70).

I haven’t seen any traditional conicals that would create as long of a driving band, nor were any of them hardly this heavy and short, allowing for more powder than common. That’s lot of weight and friction to have to overcome. This is precisely what I figured would happen if loaded in a repro, though I must admit I wasn’t so sure with a Walker or Dragoon with those much thicker walls, but quite plausible.

I’ve looked into what kind of pressures these modern repros can handle, but found nothing except for people talking back n forth on it. No number was ever placed. I’m rather hesitant to believe standard .44s (Colt/Rem) rated for standard .45 Colt (14.5K psi) pressures. I’d think I’m well above standard pressure with my Ruger’s load.

Of course, and maybe I should have started with this, I’m a bit ignorant about the exacting details of these metals, there are plenty of aspects that impact them) and how exactly my short heavy bullet with a lot of friction fit will impact the pressure spike using sporting grade powders. There is a Swiss powder calculator available that’s claimed to be pretty accurate. I can’t vouch for it but figure it’s likely close enough. Using their calculator I ran reduced loads of the Pyrodex P 52 grn charge as it’s likely not as potent as Swiss, Olde E, or T7.

And in my Ruger:

And in my NMA:

Again, I’m looking at broad data, nothing I know to be concrete. But I don’t know that my long bearing surfaces aren’t creating a higher spike. Jack of some trades, master of none, but with what little I know and what I see I wouldn’t do it in anything but my Ruger because I know that it can’t create the kind of pressure that would harm it. It’s a dandy in the hand when you pull the trigger. It’s pretty nice really and not quite as much felt recoil as I assumed.

M. De Land · Dec 5, 2024

rodwha said:
I haven’t seen any traditional conicals that would create as long of a driving band, nor were any of them hardly this heavy and short, allowing for more powder than common. That’s lot of weight and friction to have to overcome. This is precisely what I figured would happen if loaded in a repro, though I must admit I wasn’t so sure with a Walker or Dragoon with those much thicker walls, but quite plausible.

I’ve looked into what kind of pressures these modern repros can handle, but found nothing except for people talking back n forth on it. No number was ever placed. I’m rather hesitant to believe standard .44s (Colt/Rem) rated for standard .45 Colt (14.5K psi) pressures. I’d think I’m well above standard pressure with my Ruger’s load.

Of course, and maybe I should have started with this, I’m a bit ignorant about the exacting details of these metals, there are plenty of aspects that impact them) and how exactly my short heavy bullet with a lot of friction fit will impact the pressure spike using sporting grade powders. There is a Swiss powder calculator available that’s claimed to be pretty accurate. I can’t vouch for it but figure it’s likely close enough. Using their calculator I ran reduced loads of the Pyrodex P 52 grn charge as it’s likely not as potent as Swiss, Olde E, or T7.

View attachment 366550

And in my Ruger:

View attachment 366551

And in my NMA:

View attachment 366552

Again, I’m looking at broad data, nothing I know to be concrete. But I don’t know that my long bearing surfaces aren’t creating a higher spike. Jack of some trades, master of none, but with what little I know and what I see I wouldn’t do it in anything but my Ruger because I know that it can’t create the kind of pressure that would harm it. It’s a dandy in the hand when you pull the trigger. It’s pretty nice really and not quite as much felt recoil as I assumed.

I've pulled up the tensile, yield and hoop strengths of 4140 heat treated and 8620 carbonized (case hardened/colored) which are the primary stress resistance in fire arms and they are quite similar in strength and toughness. There are other character qualities involved but as far as I know these are the primary factors. If 8620 or equivalent alloy is used in the reproduction revolvers which I think is the case then design becomes the major strength differential.
Another factor important to convertible cylinder users that most folks who reload cartridges are unaware of is the fact that straight wall hand gun cartridges reveal pressure differently than do bottle neck cartridges. Pressure shows up in bottle neck case primers long before it does in straight wall revolver cases according to John Linebaugh. At times the first indication of pressure is sticky extraction and or case separation. I've read that PSI can run up to 70 K before cases stick or come apart which is quite shocking if factual. That actually does make sense because normal case brass begins to flow at 60-70 K psi which is when case necks need trimming.

nick_1 · Dec 5, 2024

Blowing the chamber out of a walker seems period correct

When I was a teenager I used to load my Ruger security six .357 so hot that the primers were completely flattened and I had to use my leather mallet to extract the cases. Young and dumb. I had a lee hand held die, caper etc. Filled the little red plastic scoop up once and then a .22lr case and that was my load. some kind of IMR powder? naturally because its a Ruger she survived and still shoots just fine. Gave her a bit of work last week and was pleasantly surprised.

Bad Karma · Dec 5, 2024

rodwha said:
I haven’t seen any traditional conicals that would create as long of a driving band, nor were any of them hardly this heavy and short, allowing for more powder than common. That’s lot of weight and friction to have to overcome. This is precisely what I figured would happen if loaded in a repro, though I must admit I wasn’t so sure with a Walker or Dragoon with those much thicker walls, but quite plausible.

I’ve looked into what kind of pressures these modern repros can handle, but found nothing except for people talking back n forth on it. No number was ever placed. I’m rather hesitant to believe standard .44s (Colt/Rem) rated for standard .45 Colt (14.5K psi) pressures. I’d think I’m well above standard pressure with my Ruger’s load.

Of course, and maybe I should have started with this, I’m a bit ignorant about the exacting details of these metals, there are plenty of aspects that impact them) and how exactly my short heavy bullet with a lot of friction fit will impact the pressure spike using sporting grade powders. There is a Swiss powder calculator available that’s claimed to be pretty accurate. I can’t vouch for it but figure it’s likely close enough. Using their calculator I ran reduced loads of the Pyrodex P 52 grn charge as it’s likely not as potent as Swiss, Olde E, or T7.

View attachment 366550

And in my Ruger:

View attachment 366551

And in my NMA:

View attachment 366552

Again, I’m looking at broad data, nothing I know to be concrete. But I don’t know that my long bearing surfaces aren’t creating a higher spike. Jack of some trades, master of none, but with what little I know and what I see I wouldn’t do it in anything but my Ruger because I know that it can’t create the kind of pressure that would harm it. It’s a dandy in the hand when you pull the trigger. It’s pretty nice really and not quite as much felt recoil as I assumed.

One thing to remember is that the cylinder/barrel gap will typically reduce your velocity, something on the order of 50 fps per .002”

@nick_1 the walker did have that reputation….

45D · Dec 5, 2024

rodwha said:
I haven’t seen any traditional conicals that would create as long of a driving band, nor were any of them hardly this heavy and short, allowing for more powder than common. That’s lot of weight and friction to have to overcome. This is precisely what I figured would happen if loaded in a repro, though I must admit I wasn’t so sure with a Walker or Dragoon with those much thicker walls, but quite plausible.

I’ve looked into what kind of pressures these modern repros can handle, but found nothing except for people talking back n forth on it. No number was ever placed. I’m rather hesitant to believe standard .44s (Colt/Rem) rated for standard .45 Colt (14.5K psi) pressures. I’d think I’m well above standard pressure with my Ruger’s load.

Of course, and maybe I should have started with this, I’m a bit ignorant about the exacting details of these metals, there are plenty of aspects that impact them) and how exactly my short heavy bullet with a lot of friction fit will impact the pressure spike using sporting grade powders. There is a Swiss powder calculator available that’s claimed to be pretty accurate. I can’t vouch for it but figure it’s likely close enough. Using their calculator I ran reduced loads of the Pyrodex P 52 grn charge as it’s likely not as potent as Swiss, Olde E, or T7.

View attachment 366550

And in my Ruger:

View attachment 366551

And in my NMA:

View attachment 366552

Again, I’m looking at broad data, nothing I know to be concrete. But I don’t know that my long bearing surfaces aren’t creating a higher spike. Jack of some trades, master of none, but with what little I know and what I see I wouldn’t do it in anything but my Ruger because I know that it can’t create the kind of pressure that would harm it. It’s a dandy in the hand when you pull the trigger. It’s pretty nice really and not quite as much felt recoil as I assumed.

One thing to consider would be relieving what forcing cone is there to an 11° cone. One thing i noticed after I had my chambers reamed was that the "factory forcing cone" presents a rather abrupt introduction to the rifling for the "now full sized" (.452") jacketed bullets. I'm sure the pressures were a good bit higher than the 23Kpsi Hornadys (in the '60's). The chambers in the Dragoons are correct so the only change was the 11° fc cut.
If your chambers are under sized, your actual pressures may be lower which would be a good thing. I say that because I'm sure the bp cylinders are not of sufficient material and heat treated to allow much higher pressures than what you listed. This is why my testing is basically "worry free" because I know what pressure the cylinders are tested at. Therefore, the "PLATFORM" needs only to be able to support the cylinder with whatever pressures are being fired.
Thanks for your information!!

Mike

M. De Land · Dec 6, 2024

nick_1 said:
Blowing the chamber out of a walker seems period correct
When I was a teenager I used to load my Ruger security six .357 so hot that the primers were completely flattened and I had to use my leather mallet to extract the cases. Young and dumb. I had a lee hand held die, caper etc. Filled the little red plastic scoop up once and then a .22lr case and that was my load. some kind of IMR powder? naturally because its a Ruger she survived and still shoots just fine. Gave her a bit of work last week and was pleasantly surprised.

I have that model of Ruger as well and they're strong. I remember Kuanhausen mentioning in one of his books that almost nothing ever breaks in that gun.

M. De Land · Dec 6, 2024

45D said:
One thing to consider would be relieving what forcing cone is there to an 11° cone. One thing i noticed after I had my chambers reamed was that the "factory forcing cone" presents a rather abrupt introduction to the rifling for the "now full sized" (.452") jacketed bullets. I'm sure the pressures were a good bit higher than the 23Kpsi Hornadys (in the '60's). The chambers in the Dragoons are correct so the only change was the 11° fc cut.
If your chambers are under sized, your actual pressures may be lower which would be a good thing. I say that because I'm sure the bp cylinders are not of sufficient material and heat treated to allow much higher pressures than what you listed. This is why my testing is basically "worry free" because I know what pressure the cylinders are tested at. Therefore, the "PLATFORM" needs only to be able to support the cylinder with whatever pressures are being fired.
Thanks for your information!!

Mike

Yeah, I've cut quite a few 11 degree cones in various revolvers. My Brownell's kit also came with the cutter and lap for an 8 degree cone as well to copy an other factory cone angle.
The kit also came with a muzzle crown tool that works up to 50 cal.
I do rifle crowns in the lathe when barrel fitting.

M. De Land · Dec 6, 2024

nick_1 said:
Blowing the chamber out of a walker seems period correct
When I was a teenager I used to load my Ruger security six .357 so hot that the primers were completely flattened and I had to use my leather mallet to extract the cases. Young and dumb. I had a lee hand held die, caper etc. Filled the little red plastic scoop up once and then a .22lr case and that was my load. some kind of IMR powder? naturally because its a Ruger she survived and still shoots just fine. Gave her a bit of work last week and was pleasantly surprised.

Another factor that may have contributed to the blow out is lead hardness. I've never had any trouble with 12-15 BHN lead balls but a conical would be a different story. Pure lead is about 5 BHN but I'm sure hard lead alloy raises pressure.

rodwha · Dec 6, 2024

M. De Land said:
Another factor that may have contributed to the blow out is lead hardness. I've never had any trouble with 12-15 BHN lead balls but a conical would be a different story. Pure lead is about 5 BHN but I'm sure hard lead alloy raises pressure.

I use what was said to pure lead piping. Recently I noticed while reading up that lead pipes could contain antimony. Either which way it’s certainly below BHN 10-11. I was told it was pure when I asked but that doesn’t mean they knew the difference. I sure didn’t at the time…

I do have an ingot on the way that’s 20:1 to cut my “pure” lead with. I guess I ought to get a hardness tester. I didn’t think it was necessary since I intended to just use pure lead.

M. De Land · Dec 6, 2024

rodwha said:
I use what was said to pure lead piping. Recently I noticed while reading up that lead pipes could contain antimony. Either which way it’s certainly below BHN 10-11. I was told it was pure when I asked but that doesn’t mean they knew the difference. I sure didn’t at the time…

I do have an ingot on the way that’s 20:1 to cut my “pure” lead with. I guess I ought to get a hardness tester. I didn’t think it was necessary since I intended to just use pure lead.

I have a couple of them but almost always use the LBT tester after casting the bullet.

Conical for Walker

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