ID help- PA style rifle signed "J.Rate" or "J.Bate"

Hello, I would appreciate help any leads on the maker of this rifle or what school this may be. It is 57" overall- barrel is 42", appears to be just under .50 cal. Wood seems to be curly maple. Brass patchbox, toeplate, and brass piece on check side of butt, and plate under forestock. Silver like inlays- large half moon on cheek side of butt, small oval escutcheon, and eight semi cricles (four along each side of the stock extending along barrel.
Barrel is signed "J Rate" or "J Bate" with asterisk style star in between.
Let me know if any more pics or info needed. (and don't mind my toes and that my floor needs swept
Thanks for any assistance
Doug

more pics

Pretty sure the rifle is post 1865, and I'm thinking 20th century built. But it might be older, so moving to the Antique Firearms section.

LD

It looks like an "Upper Susquehanna" style gun. Both Sellers' and Whisker' books list a JACOB RATE as a gunsmith in White Deer, Pa.... which I think is in Union County, so MAYBE he is your builder.. You might try doing a bit of research on him to verify.

Many thanks for the help! I found him listed as a gunsmith in White Deer in 1861, and still trying to narrow down the correct person in the genealogical databases. It would be nice to see another piece by him, but not seeing anything online yet.

That is a fine antique piece you have there. Congrats! The lock has been converted from flint to percussion at some point, and the lock plate has been cleaned moderately. If the lock plate is original to the rest of the gun, its definitely pre-1865, but parts like that are known to be recycled.

What's the condition of the bore and rifling?

That rifle would most likely make a heck of a shooter if you had the time or the notion to work it over.

Cheers!

Thanks! The rifling is strong as far down as I can see (pic below). The lock seems to be original to piece, nice tight fit and if so, I'm guessing pre-1840? I'm guessing that would be the era seeing conversions, if similar to military weapons?

That vent pick stowage under the cheek rest also speaks to the rifle originally being a flintlock.

A picture of the back side of the gun opposite the lock plate would be helpful, to verify if two bolts attach the lock, or only one. The gun is distinctly an Upper Susquehanna rifle from the Union & Snyder Counties area in eastern PA. As Dusty Traveler pointed out, the gun was originally a flintlock based on the converted lock and vent pick inlay under the cheekpiece with its small "tube" along the top edge to hold the pick.

A barrel length of 42 inches and larger bore about .45 caliber, along with the many embellishments including a full patchbox, forestock inlays, comb inlays, cheek and vent pick inlays, suggest a flint era rifle made about 1820-1830. The oval, rather than round, tail on the lock plate tends to suggest the earlier end of that range, early 1820s.

I checked Whisker's "Arms Makers of Pennsylvania" where he lists "Jacob Rate" as a gunsmith in White Deer Township, Union County, PA, to see what his source was. The listing came from "Boyd's Pennsylvania State Business Directory of 1861." I also checked census indexes for the "Rate" name in Pennsylvania, and no "Jacob Rate" was listed. There was a "John Rate" with age in the 30s living in Union County, PA in 1830, but no occupation was listed [not avail until 1850 census]. A "John Rate" also appeared 10 years earlier in Northumberland County, PA. This is worth noting, since the Jacob Rate, while a gunsmith in 1861, may not have been making guns as early as in 1820-1825, and perhaps Jacob had a father or relative who was an earlier gunsmith with the first initial "J." We know bits & pieces of Union County's gunmaking history, but there are a lot of gaps in it, and known Union Co. or Upper Susquehanna rifles have initialed barrels that we still have not been able to identify.

I think a "safer" path to follow on this very nice Upper Susquehanna rifle is to remain open about its maker and not jump to the conclusion the 1861 "Jacob Rate" must be the gun's maker... just because he's the only one we can find. There are a lot of years between 1825 and 1861... and we don't know if Jacob was making guns that early; if he were, he should have been listed in one or two of the PA census indexes, but he wasn't. The "John Rate" who was in the right area at the right time but of unknown occupation, may deserve a little more research.

Shelby Gallien

Shelby, I agree with your conclusions.
Although your John Rate seemed to be "of the right age and correct region", there are lots of possibilities that he likewise is not the original maker. In the 1850 census, John was listed as a farmer, but lots of "occasional gunmakers" had various other occupations listed in the census. John actually had a son named Jacob who was born about 1834. Who knows ... by 1861, this Jacob might even be the one listed in Boyds ( but obviously too young to have built this original gun). Or perhaps the barrel inscription is merely a later owners mark, as occasionally seen. As I stated earlier, to definitively figure out the builder, more information needs to be found from other records in Union County.

Thanks again for the info! I came across other possible names, but just no "smoking gun" leads to anyone. I'll keep digging and see what I come up with and appreciate all the info posted.
As for the lock, it does have 2 bolts, with 2 brass inlays at the holes, I'll post a pic later when I get a chance.
Thanks again!