The Modern Sidelocks Place in pre 1870 History

It seems that every time a CVA, Traditions, Thompson Center or Lyman muzzleloader is mentioned a few folks can't hardly wait to say, "Those guns are NOT period/historically correct. Guns like those never existed." or words to that effect.

Often the short fore stock, single barrel wedge, straight octagon barrels and sights are mentioned and there is little doubt that the big boxy adjustable sights that come on many of these guns probably don't represent the sights of guns that were made in the mid to late 1800's.

The rest of the gun however does appear to be quite representative of the guns of our past.
The following photo taken from Curtis L. Johnson's "GUNMAKERS of ILLINOIS 1683-1900" George Shumway Publisher, York, Penn, 2005 has more than a few common features of the Italian and Spanish guns.


Before saying that this is just one picture of one gun I would suggest that a review of the above book be made.

Short fore arms and single barrel wedges are shown on pages 81, 91, 114, 145, 152, 193, 164, 166,175, 178, 178, 296, 271, 296, 310, 311, 312, 313,316, 319, 327, 332, 335, 336, 342, 354, 356, 365, 366, 378, 380, 382, 383, 412, 433, 439 and 469. This list excludes the obvious target guns and Schutzens shown in the books (Vol I & II) and it should be remembered, these are but a few of the guns made in Illinois not to mention the guns made in California, Ohio, Iowa, New York, and the rest of the United States.

Although guns exactly like these guns may not be Historically correct for reenacting period the Mountain Men of the 1820-1850 period there is no doubt that these guns (with minor alterations like removing the boxey adjustable rear sight) could easily be used for the time period of 1840-1870 in the more civilized areas of the Nation. They are very Traditional and they do represent an accurate recreation of the firearms made during the 1840-1870 period of our history.

That makes them both Historically and Period correct for the 1840-1870 time frame.

Before someone starts picking on the shape of the butt, I again urge them to look at the book mentioned above. There was an incredibly diverse amount of variation in stock shapes during this period.

In all fairness I will say that many of the guns shown in the photos on the pages listed above do have longer barrels than the modern reproductions but not all of them had long heavy barrels.

And a rather famous rifle, though more elaborate in many ways than the typical CVA/Traditions, also has a strikingly short forestock and one barrel wedge:
http://www.museumofthemountainman.com/exhibits/scr-jimbridgerrifle.jpg

Great post... :wink:

I'm thankful that you presented that set of pics and the reference material that they represent.

We are all here to post pics or experiences that we wish to share. Some folks are getting incredible enjoyment from being first-time muzzleloaders. We need to encourage that.

tg said something that really struck me... effectively that we should go out and enjoy and shoot our guns and hopefully we will move forward into the historical aspect as we grow with our passion towards this era.

I think that an excellent post Zonie and a fitting contribution from a moderator to help steer some of these contentious threads.

I think you should consider making a 'sticky' out of it in each of the general categories that are supposedly for general discussion about using and enjoying muzzleloaders as a general theme, and not a PC/HC judging event every time somebody posts about a mass produced muzzleloader.

:hatsoff:

My apologies to those with dial up but here are two more pictures from the same book that may interest you.

The back action lock was popular starting roughly in 1835 and this rifle made use of one.
The rifle was made sometime around 1865 by Frederick Thiede.


I thought this rifle would be of interest because I have heard comments made about the lack of drop in some of the reproduction rifles indicating that they were not Historically or Period correct.
Appearently William Kellermann in 1853-1869 didn't know about this as is shown by this photo of one of his rifles;

Kellermann died in 1869 so the rifle predates that year.

My take on the subject is - and has always been - that if you use black powder, prb and percussion cap or flint; you ARE into the historical aspect. Varying quality aside, production/import guns are quite legitimate arms for this. :thumbsup: A USA made "micro replica" is nice but, basically unnecessary.

This post makes my not so historically correct rifles look better and better. Not that I really cared if they were. :thumbsup: I enjoy shooting the daylights out of them.

A trip to Dixie Gun Works or the Log Cabin and a look through their origional guns will show that there was a great variety in the old times. Probably much more so than today.While there are definately people concerned with the exact style of specic guns ( Such as the difference between a 1750's Lancaster style vs a 1780's Burks county style . etc ) far and away most of us are content with what we can afford. I make rifles for what I and my customers want, not a copy of some one else's. To each his own. :hmm:

:applause:

Thank you Zonie

I should probably add something to this topic, especially for the folks who aren't 'into' reenacting and what Period Correct and Historically Correct mean (not that I could be called an expert about the subject).

My research, which at this point just touches on the guns made in Illinois gives a fair amount of proof that guns very similar to the Italian and Spanish guns did exist in the United States in our past. Almost all of the guns that are similar in my reference books were made between 1850 and 1875.

This makes some statements like, "Guns like that didn't exist before 1966...." totally incorrect.
They not only existed but there were a lot of them.

That said, based on my findings, they were popular in the 1850-1875 period, in the Mid-West at least.

Now, the question, "Are they Period Correct or Historically Correct?"

To understand the answer you must first realize that there are many different groups who reenact specific periods of our history.

For something to be Period Correct it must have been used during, or prior to the exact time they are recreating.
That is pretty simple to remember.

If, for instance a group was reenacting the Revolutionary War, a percussion gun wouldn't be acceptable because the percussion cap wasn't even thought of at that time.

Even though percussion ignition was initially invented just prior to 1800, the cap, as we know it wasn't invented until just about the end of the War of 1812 and almost no one used them until after 1825.
This would make a percussion rifle incorrect for the time of the War of 1812.

The half-stock rifle started becoming fairly popular in the 1820's (although the Model 1803 Military rifle was a half-stock the general population still liked their fullstock guns), the Plains Rifle coming to mind but these Plains Rifles were heavy duty guns with most of them having long barrel tangs and trigger plates to reinforce the wrist, double barrel wedges to allow the gun to still be used if the one wedge was lost, heavy barrels (the horse carried the rider and his gun), iron furniture and long heavy (often tapered) barrels.

It was quite different than the lighter, single wedge guns of the Mid-West that are shown above.

Does this make these reproductions of the Mid-Western guns Not PC? No.
They are still Period Correct because they existed during that period of time but they are not very likely to be considered Historically Correct for folks reenacting the Mountain Men or the trapping era in the Rockies.

Where Period Correct refers to what was available and common during some period of time, Historically Correct depends on not only time, but on what was happening at some specific location. This is the reason some reenactors may object to someone carrying a gun that looks like a Traditions 'Hawken' at a Rocky Mountain Rendezvous.

To those who own one of these single wedge short forearm guns, I hope this topic has helped you understand when and how your guns fit into our history but, please, don't go telling folks at a Rocky Mountain Rendezvous reenactment, "Ole Zonie on the Muzzleloadingforum proved my gun is Historically Correct!"
For the Mid-West after 1850 it is but for the Rocky Mountains in the 1820-1840 period it is not.

Before I end this post let me say that many Rendezvous are made up of non-reenactors or semi-reenactors who are just wanting to get together for a weekend and camp out with similar minded folks, using as much of the PC equipment as they can find and shoot their muzzleloaders and maybe throw a knife or two.
These folks won't object to a TC or Traditions 'Hawken' in their midst.

For the folks trying to recreate the Trappers in the Rocky Mountains in 1830 if they say they don't want a 1850+ gun there then don't take one.

Before going to one of these, talk to the people sitting it up and ask them whether a gun like yours would be accepted. Many will say, "Sure! Bring it along! We'er just wanting to have some fun!"

Does seem like these prepost Civil War rifles and thier California cousins of that era are out of step. I don't think that the NSSA would want you and the fur trade folks don't want you. Maybe folks in the Midwest could start a Chicago Rondy or a Cornfield Rondy. Then these rifles would have a home. :idunno:

:thumbsup: :hatsoff:

cool pic's. I don't know if any of you know it or not but hawken IS STILL IN BIZNESS!!!!! owned by a small shop here in wa called Greenes gun shop. I've seen and held them. they're close to the samail hawken origial models. you can ether order yours with buckhorn sights or adjustable open hunting sights. wich they came with back then. as so I'm told by miss greene. go check them out! go to hawken shop.com or greenesgunshop.com

redwing said:

Does seem like these prepost Civil War rifles and thier California cousins of that era are out of step. I don't think that the NSSA would want you and the fur trade folks don't want you. Maybe folks in the Midwest could start a Chicago Rondy or a Cornfield Rondy. Then these rifles would have a home. :idunno:

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Right you are. But, ya know, if you squint just so and hold your head a certain way, the two Illinois rifles (both of which are very attractive rifles, thanks for showing them to us Zonie) do sort of remind you of some of the modern factory made rifles....

Almost. Despite the fact that the factories by the very nature of their machine production leave too much wood on the stocks making the proportions all out of whack and with slavishly straight lines.....

What is the big deal and the need for this thread? At least the other has (finally) been locked. The factory made rifles are close enough as long as you don't show up at a juried event that dates to a period before 1840 and expect to be accepted. But then hey :idunno: most people don't so they are perfectly okay if they are what you want and the price is right. Everyone can agree with that, even the most HC/PC people - what is important is where your comfort zone lies and what your pre-purchase research tells you is good for your needs. Nothing more.

I have to wonder if a gun builder who knows what hes doing had any of these originals in hand, how much work he would have to do to make any T/C, CVA, Traditions or any other factory made gun, look exactly like it. Theres much more to it than a 2 dimentional picture. :idunno:

"Theres much more to it than a 2 dimentional picture."

That is a very strong point but the author of this thread seems to forget that all the guns we have now are based on the Mt. man guns so popular in the 60's and 70's and any resemblance to anything later is mearly by chance, this is a sad day for this forum, its historic value has been set back beyound repair, don't even bother typing in my direction Zonie.

I didn't think Illinois had that many gunbuilders that made plains rifles besides Browning in Nauvoo which is 10 miles north of where I live. :haha:

Va.Manuf.06 said:

What is the big deal and the need for this thread?...The factory made rifles are close enough as long as you don't show up at a juried event that dates to a period before 1840 and expect to be accepted...

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IMO, the need for this thread stems from the many comments made by various people which say, in effect, "The modern reproductions represent guns that Never Existed " which is a totally untrue statement.

I agree that many of the modern sidelock guns are not as nicely finished or as sculptured as the originals but the fact remains. Guns that were very similar if not identical to the modern reproductions did and do exist.

Some self proclaimed experts will undoubtedly continue to make their statements however, they are only showing their ignorance of our Countries firearm history for all the world to see.

The people who have bought these reproductions and are justly proud of them, up until now have had to sit by without evidence to support the fact that their guns do represent Traditional guns that were used for everything from target shooting to hunting buffalo.
Now, they have some indisputable evidence.

They also have a good idea of the time frame in American History that their guns represent.

While there are those who think this Topic spells doom for the Forums contributions to the general knowledge of history for our members, I feel it is a worthwhile addition.

I'm sure there are many who agree that this Topic is worthwhile and some who don't.

I do not want this to turn into a debate here so gentlemen, I'm closing it to further discussion.