1:44 twist 50 cal and lead conicals

[NoYesIdunnoMaybe]

I have an older CVA Woodsman 50 cal, and best I can measure, it has a 1:44 twist rate. I've been trying to get 385gr Hornady Great Plains conicals to group well out it, and I recently learned that not all twist rates are conducive to heavy conicals. Is 1:44 fast enough for conical bullets? Is there an ideal weight for this twist rate?

 

[Sparkplug]

I'm far from an expert on ML. But after 2 years of trial and error, I am of the opinion that my 1:44 twist 50s are better with a shorter (lighter) projectile. I even used this info to find a conical for my 1:66 twist Kentucky rifle. The bullet is about .46 in length and .452 in diameter. Anything longer tends to lose accuracy and as you move up, they tend to keyhole.

I cast 320gr Lee REAL that do okay in my 50s with a lighter (65gr 2f) charge. But, my 45 conical with a thick or double patch shoot even more accurately out of the same guns!

But, ever gun is different!

 

[Spikebuck]

Conicals can work in many twists. Groove configuration may also be key as well as particular conicals.

I shot big 425 grain Hornady Great Plains conicals out of my 1-65 twist .54 cal Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken and Frontier rifles with great success using a charge of 90 grains T7 or real black . Those rifles have rather shallow square grooved rifling. Buffalo ball-ets also worked very well.

They would only shoot hollow based conicals. Solid based bullets tumbled, even with a felt wad underneath. I believe the skirt expanding better engaged the rifling.

A 1-4X twist is plenty fast enough. All you can do is try various conicals and see what works.

This buck was taken at 89 yards with the RM Hawken. Bullet mushroomed nicely losing virtually no weight. Blew the heart apart.

 

[longcruise]

They would only shoot hollow based conicals. Solid based bullets tumbled, even with a felt wad underneath. I believe the skirt expanding better engaged the rifling.

I think the HB also changes the weight distribution in a way that helps stability. I'd leave it to our CW re enactors to say for sure but I think some of those 58 cals shot/shoot some big HB bullets with some pretty slow twists.

 

[SDSmlf]

I have an older CVA Woodsman 50 cal, and best I can measure, it has a 1:44 twist rate. I've been trying to get 385gr Hornady Great Plains conicals to group well out it, and I recently learned that not all twist rates are conducive to heavy conicals. Is 1:44 fast enough for conical bullets? Is there an ideal weight for this twist rate?

Believe CVA only made the Woodsman 50 in 1-48 twist, though I could be wrong. Your rifling depth is relatively shallow, so a conical may work. But that doesn’t matter at the moment, it will all come down to actual range performance. For starters, you could try an 1/8” thick oversized hard felt wad between the powder and bullet. I found in many cases it will improve accuracy. If you are still not satisfied, consider a 250 grain REAL bullet, but again, use a felt wad between the powder and bullet. If you are still struggling with accuracy, may be time to try a patched roundball to potentially get your confidence up.

 

[mrd]

I shoot a Investraum 50 cal. in 1 in 48 and found it to group best with 275 grain conical.

 

[NoYesIdunnoMaybe]

Believe CVA only made the Woodsman 50 in 1-48 twist, though I could be wrong. Your rifling depth is relatively shallow, so a conical may work. But that doesn’t matter at the moment, it will all come down to actual range performance. For starters, you could try an 1/8” thick oversized hard felt wad between the powder and bullet. I found in many cases it will improve accuracy. If you are still not satisfied, consider a 250 grain REAL bullet, but again, use a felt wad between the powder and bullet. If you are still struggling with accuracy, may be time to try a patched roundball to potentially get your confidence up.

I think you're right, it's probably 1:48. I couldn't find any info previously, but then saw it listed in a big table recently. I've got some wads to try out. The fact of the matter is though, really heavy conicals, like the 460, 495, or 600 grain bullets that No Excuses carry, probably wouldn't be stabilized in the 1:48, right?

 

[SDSmlf]

The fact of the matter is though, really heavy conicals, like the 460, 495, or 600 grain bullets that No Excuses carry, probably wouldn't be stabilized in the 1:48, right?

Conventional wisdom tells us that longer heavier bullets for caliber perform more accurately in a faster twist bore. From the OP it sounds like the 385 grain Great Plains wasn’t accurate. As previously suggested, step down to the 250 grain REAL and see how they work. If you already have the heavier No Excuses, may as well try them, and you will know for sure how they work.

 

[Erwan]

Normally with a .50 caliber and a 1:44" twist the REAL will work good...
What says the Miller formula?
- https://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi

 

[longcruise]

A 50 cal 1:48 should readily stabilize bullets up to 3/4" in length according to Greenhill. Actually I think that length can be extended somewhat. It's a formula and not a law

A bullet might be well within a correct length parameter and still not perform well due to fit to the barrel diameter or some other subtle factor.

 

[Nuthatch]

I’ve shot 300 gr and 247 gr conicals out of my .50 with 1:48 twist and they fly great. 1:44 isn’t that different and would likely be a slight (probably not noticeable) improvement for conicals. A 90gr load of Pyrodex gives me about 1500+ fps. You could probably push that harder and get more speed but start lower and work up.

There’s the twist rate. But then your load can adapt that twist to help stabilize a longer projectile. If it’s unstable at lower speeds, keep working that load up until you see the accuracy you want. If you’re north of 100 grains and still not getting much accuracy, then choose a different bullet.

 

[Christophero]

I found out that too much powder/velocity would strip the soft lead from the lands, causing erratic accuracy. If you have fffg start at 60 grains and go up in 5 grain increments. If all you have is ffg then begin with 70 grains. I used 355 grain pure lead conicals with a 1:48" twist with superb results with 65 grains of fffg or 80 grains of ffg.

 

[morehops52]

Nearly all my rifles have a 1:48 twist. I tried Great Plains bullets in both 50 and 54 and they were the worst of all I tried. From reading here, some have had similar experiences and some say they shot very well. I am fortunate that all mine shoot Maxi Balls very well and some shoot the Hunters even better. Shooting a lot and trying different conicals will reveal the best for your particular barrel.

 

[Spikebuck]

Nearly all my rifles have a 1:48 twist. I tried Great Plains bullets in both 50 and 54 and they were the worst of all I tried. From reading here, some have had similar experiences and some say they shot very well. I am fortunate that all mine shoot Maxi Balls very well and some shoot the Hunters even better. Shooting a lot and trying different conicals will reveal the best for your particular barrel.

Yep...exactly why one just has to put in the time to see what their particular gun likes to eat!

In my case the TC solid base conicals tumbled with or without a wad and at various charges. The hollow base GP and Buffalo bullets worked perfectly.

 

[pamtnman]

This post and the subsequent supportive, kind, helpful, useful comments are what bring me back here. Well done, guys

 

[marsh trapper]

Conicals can work in many twists. Groove configuration may also be key as well as particular conicals.

I shot big 425 grain Hornady Great Plains conicals out of my 1-65 twist .54 cal Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken and Frontier rifles with great success using a charge of 90 grains T7 or real black . Those rifles have rather shallow square grooved rifling. Buffalo ball-ets also worked very well.

They would only shoot hollow based conicals. Solid based bullets tumbled, even with a felt wad underneath. I believe the skirt expanding better engaged the rifling.

A 1-4X twist is plenty fast enough. All you can do is try various conicals and see what works.

This buck was taken at 89 yards with the RM Hawken. Bullet mushroomed nicely losing virtually no weight. Blew the heart apart.
View attachment 274662View attachment 274663View attachment 274664

That pedersoli is a beaut!

 

[Christophero]

Agree with the gentleman above. My Renegade shoots the TC Maxibalks and Maxihunter conical bullets especially well. The Lee REAL Bullets were just passable.
PRB's out of the Blue Ridge and GPR do very well. Haven't shot them from the TC's though.
Experimentation goes a long way in this sport.

 

[Red Eye]

I have a Traditions Woodsman Hawken, 50 cal flintlock, 1:48 twist. Like you, I experimented for months trying to see if it would shoot a conical well enough for a hunting load.
My results....... it hated the Hornady Great Plains bullet no matter what charge of 3 F I had under it. The good.......it grouped the T/C maxi- hunter very well with 80 gr. of 3F under it and the Maxi-ball did even a little better, that's my hunting load. Target loads, it shoots 60 gr. of 3F with a patch and ball very well.
I'll finally get out this weekend with the PA. flintlock only deer season and see if I can't get my first ever flintlock deer.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

A 50 cal 1:48 should readily stabilize bullets up to 3/4" in length according to Greenhill. Actually I think that length can be extended somewhat. It's a formula and not a law

A bullet might be well within a correct length parameter and still not perform well due to fit to the barrel diameter or some other subtle factor.

Quite right...
CVA contracted for those rifles, and the manufacturer might change rifling depth, or the previous owner might've at one time tried to polish the bore..., lots of unknowns can change performance...

Conventional wisdom tells us that longer heavier bullets for caliber perform more accurately in a faster twist bore. From the OP it sounds like the 385 grain Great Plains wasn’t accurate. As previously suggested, step down to the 250 grain REAL and see how they work. If you already have the heavier No Excuses, may as well try them, and you will know for sure how they work.

Yeah, conical can be weird.
My New Englander hated TC Maxi-balls in .54, and hated Hornady Great Plains, but..., the lightest TC Maxi-Hunter for .54 would shoot clover-leaf groups at 50 yards.

I'd suggest that you try the 250 grain REAL .50 bullet from a mold from LEE.

LD

 

[ETipp]

Some interesting replies on this.

I have a .50 New Englander that shoots Maxi Balls quite well and also shoots Hornady GPB perhaps better yet. The only thing I didn't like about the GPB is they are difficult to get started and when pushing them down to be seated there is basically no pressure on the ramrod. It was like they darn near fell to the breech. This gave me pause because I know that if I decide to hunt with them that I would definitely want to keep checking that the GPB hasn't moved off the charge. I hunt some pretty steep and rough areas.

My feelings are the GPB would most likely be a very good conical for deer in this part of the country. Even though they have a reputation for over-expanding, to the point of coming apart, I still believe they would make a very good deer hunting pill.