100 yard RB accuracy ?

[rabjr]

Don't know what your trying to do necchi but your making his quote into something it is not.

He was making the statement the old wives tale of "skipping the rifling" wasn't true. :nono:

 

[necchi]

Many people realize through the experience of load development with most Trad ML that there is an optimal charge for accuracy that is usually found well below a maximum charge for the gun.

While there may be more than one charge that lends decent accuracy, normal load development begins at a lower end and is then worked up in a suggested 5grn increment, all the while looking at the groups for changes.
It’s typical for the low charges to be more open on paper, then as an optimal charge is reached the groups get smaller,, given that all other variables beyond the charge are maintained.

At some point, a characteristic in all load development, some times referred to as
“The Point of Diminishing Return” occurs and the groups begin to open again.
Charges large enough to cause the PRB to “skip” the rifling are at or should be well beyond this Point of Diminishing Return .

1+7/8-2+3/4 100yrd groups are indeed a phenomenal feat that we all should aspire too, especially with charges large enough to cause “skipping” or larger groups in all other guns besides the ones in question.

 

[roundball]

Don't know what your trying to do necchi but your making his quote into something it is not.

Yes, and very obvious to everyone...
:thumbsup:

 

[necchi]

Thank You Bill, :wink:
I'd like to compliment your unique shooting skills,
Well Done,

 

[damron]

3 or 5 shot groups? i dont think its aiming point issues for me. I shoot groups with similar sights on the same bull in CF rifles with cast bullets consistently better than with my muzzle-loaders.

George

 

[Rifleman1776]

Charges large enough to cause the PRB to “skip” the rifling

Many believe this notion to just that...a notion. Ball skipping or stipping simply does not happen, IMHO.
For those who feel otherwise, I would like to see proof.
I will agree a certain amount of pressure and velocity is required to get optimum from any given barrel. Also, as charges/pressures/velocities increase the best accuracy will be lost. For practical (e.g. hunting) purposes that loss is of no consequence. The serious 'X' shooters will see the changes.

 

[necchi]

A big part of it all George is about the consistancy of the load.
Each shot deposits a given amount of powder fouling, and if that deposit isn't considered during a shooting session the bore conditions change.
Some guy's use a patch lube that's wet enough to push fouling down with the patched ball.
Others will swab the bore as an individual part of the process of loading.
Still others (where legal according to range rules) blow down the bore to soften fouling.

The ways are many, I don't want to promote one way or another as it always leads to great depate, but they all boil down to paying attention to the details.

Bore fouling can be different from day to day with weather conditions, cold, hot/dry, hot/humid as well as different with the various powders.

Seating pressure is another variable.

If you really want to wring the most out of your rifles this will be the best money you've ever spent. http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/
Kinda interesting, I just looked at the site, I was #284 when I bought the "System".

 

[roundball]

Ball skipping or stripping simply does not happen, IMHO.

Correct...old wives tales...most people on forums usually just repeat what they've seen other people post and don't have a clue about it's validity.

If people would spend less time at the keyboard and more time at the range actually doing first hand testing/analysis/load development for a given caliber & barrel...they'd learn and understand how things work and never make such across the board statements because they'd know better.
But until they do the actual hands-on work...we get anything from A-Z posted as if its reality.

:wink:

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Ball skipping can occur but depends on the rifling
Normal round ball rifling,,,no.
Load 100 grains under a prb in an early cva barrel or an inline and it will strip
Very early cva barrels had rifling only a thousandth or so deep it could not hang on to the ball with heavy loads.

 

[damron]

rifling only .001 deep.I have never heard of it that shallow.Most button/hammer forged barrels are about .004.Even microgroove is about .002.Its amazing they shot at all.

George

 

[damron]

I am pretty careful about seating pressure.I blow down the bore after each shot.I only tried swabbing between shots one session with this rifle and it didn't seem to help.Maybe i need to use a looser patch rather than the tight one i used?These is a variable somewhere i am missing.I also tried swaged balls to my cast and saw no accuracy change.
BTW this is going onto over 400 shots fired over abut 2 weeks time with the current test.About 15-20 of those 5 shot groups have been at 100 when conditions allow it.

thanks for all the input again.

I'm too cheap to pay for the "system"

George

 

[necchi]

How would one prove or disprove a ball is skipping?

Inaccuracy?
Shredded patch?
Some how catch a ball and inspect it?
Lead somehow creeping through the patch and plugging the rifling?

At what point is the excess charge or the PRB's action in the barrel causing any inaccuracy?

I'm not being argumentitive here, I'm curious how the results where reached.

What factor Bill, actually proved the point?
So you shot a bunch at 90grns, OK, what did or didn't it prove?

I don't understand, how the determination was made :idunno:

 

[roundball]

Load 100 grains under a prb in an early cva barrel or an inline and it will strip
Very early cva barrels had rifling only a thousandth or so deep it could not hang on to the ball with heavy loads.

Not talking about defective or out of spec barrels, not talking about smoothbores with no rifling, etc...this is what I was talking about:

"...I then ran tests to prove / disprove the suspected old wives tale claim of high power PRBs loads being inaccurate due to "skipping the rifling" in T/C's standard 28" x 1:48" x shallow groove barrels in .45/.50/.54cal Flintlocks, using 90grns Goex 3F, .018" pillow ticking, and Hornady .440"/.490"/.530" balls..."

And proved there was no inaccuracy problem in those 3 standard production T/C barrels using large PRB powder charges.

:thumbsup:

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Those really early cva barrels looked like they twisted a piece of coarse sand paper through them to create the rifling. It was barely noticeable, My first flinter, a kit purchased in Jan or february of 1973 had such barely rifling.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Quite respectfully roundball, what was the accuracy test group and what with the roundballs. Probably barely minute of deer. TC's old compromise 1:48 rifling was notorious for it's large groups at 100 yards.

If what you report was as easily confirmable fact, there would be no loss of accuracy shooting PRB's in all those inlines out there. And most who have tried it know far better than to believe that.
Accuracy is very relative. What is no change in accuracy to some is a hilariously funny to others.
I have heard people think there is no change in accuracy when mixing .490 and .495 balls in the same shot string. If all you want to do is hit the barn, then of course there is no loss of accuracy. Or was it a group like the 100 yard record targets shot at friendship? If the best a shooter can do is a 6 inch group, a fine target rifle will not do any better in his hands.