1085/1095 steel

[Birdman]

been looking at a couple knives said to be made from either 1085 or 1095 high carbon steel n well tempered, was wondering if these are good steels for knives as I know squat about steel, thanks to any in the know, YMHS Birdman

 

[Bob Gular]

They are very good knife steels.

 

[longrifle78]

Yep, good stuff.

 

[hornetk4]

Those two steels are just the basic carbon steels for knife blades. In my opinion they are the best, they are way better than all of the stainless types plus they are of the easyer types to heat treat. Tool steels and stainless steels require more complicated heat treating meathodes and they are harder to work on the anvil if your fordging the blades.If you are using metal removal methods the steels are less different to work with .

 

[LRB]

1095 is not an easy steel to heat treat properly for a blade. It is very difficult to get it right in the quench, and the type of quench is critical. With 1095, you have a window of just short of one second to bring it down from 1500°, to under 900°, in order to get it right. This requires a very fast quench oil, or brine. If you miss this window, you end up with a hard blade, but it is hardened pearlite, due to the pealite being mixed with splotches of martensite, when it should be nearly all Martensite. Simply put, this is not a good condition for the steel to be in. The steel is not in a homogenous condition, and is weak from having too much carbon in it's grain bounderies, and although it will pass the file test, it will have softer spots throughout the steel, if tested with a Rockwell tester. It will not hold an edge as it should, due to this condition, and since there is an overload of carbon between the grains, it is weaker than it should be. 1095 is also very prone to micro cracking in the quench, and as that term implies, you cannot see these cracks, until they grow, which if there, will grow sooner or later. 1084 on the other hand, is almost fool proof in heat treat, and can be done quite well with a minimum of equipment, and will hold an edge almost as well as 1095. 1095 can make a great knife blade, but it has to be carefully, and skillfully heat treated.

 

[fatboy]

Wicke what type oil or oil mix would you use for the 1095 steel

 

[LRB]

Parks 50 is one of the most widely recommended for 1095, but there may be others as good. Some claim success with a layer of oil, I don't recall what kind, floating on top of water. supposedly this gives less shock to the steel as it passes through. I don't know how well that really works. Many have good luck with a brine quench, but one would have to experiment with that. Brine cools the steel faster than plain water, but it does the cooling much more evenly than plain water, because the salt breaks up the vapor jacket about as fast as it forms. This reduces uneven cooling, which is the main culpret in the steel stressing unevenly, and cracking. Rule of thumb to make brine, is enough salt to float an egg, but I have seen where more than one maker recommends even a stronger solution. If I were to work with 1095 again, and did not want to buy the Parks 50, I think I would try the brine in different strengths, using sacrificial thin plates of the steel until it seemed right. Although Parks 50 oil, is pretty much a sure bet, with minimal risk of cracking. Another point in poor HTing of 1095, is that many smiths will quench it as soon as it becomes non-magnetic, which is not enough heat, or time for it to go into solution. Ideally, 1095 does it's best around 1500°, to 1525°, with a few minutes of soak to evenly disperse the extra carbon. 1095 is hypereutectiod steel, meaning it has more carbon than the iron will absorb into a homogenous solution. Iron will only absorb .85% of carbon, and if not evenly distributed, this left over carbon will collect in groups, and in the grain boundaries. Once in a good solution, the idea is to lock everything where it is, and with 1095, you have to perform this in less than a second of cooling to below 900°. With 1084, .84 being the approximate carbon content, solution is quickly, and easily achieved, with no left over carbon to worry with. Even so, it excells with higher heat than many seem to give it, and all steel benefits from at least a short soak. A couple of minutes at 1475°, to 1500°, with a quench in warm thin oil, will usually do very well, and although I would recommend proffesional quench oil in any case, 1084 really doesn't seem all that picky about it.

 

[fatboy]

Well I bought some lenghts of 1095 I guess when I can start doing some blade work I try my luck didnt know it was that picky

 

[LRB]

If you have some sporting blood, I just ran across the oil/water method. It was refferenced from an old machinists book. It gives no details, other than one, or two inches of oil over the water. Guy said he tried it, and it seemed to work, but it was his opinion that Parks #50 did better. You might want to make a couple of sacrificial test blades and try them before you do any serious knife work, but I would lean toward a heavy brine. Maybe twice the amount of salt that floats an egg? Possibly more. In any case, temper immediately after you can hold it in your bare hand, at 400° base minimum, up to 450°, for two, 2 hour heats. If you are using your kitchen range, have it preheated, and use an oven thermometer. They are only 5,or 6 bucks. Kitchen ranges are usually way off on temp settings. Then go torture test what you get, and see how well the edge holds cutting various things. My guess is that you will be using color to judge your quench heat. Most everyone sees color a little different. At 1500°, I see bright red-orange in dim light. A magnet will stop attracting somewhere between 1420°, to 1440°, so you need at least a good shade of color beyond that. Try and hold that color at least a couple of minutes without going much hotter, and be especially careful of overheating the point. Don't forget to normalize first. Whether it's forged, or ground. 1095 bar is usually stressed when you get it, and only half annealled.

 

[chipper]

I accidently ran on to the oil water trick while I was messing with 1095. My quench tank partially filled with rain water. I heated the mixture up to quench temperature and did my quench. I didn't realize I had done it until I used lemon to bring out the hamon. The tip went in first as I settled the rest of the blade into the quench. I could clearly see the second hamon line on the tip and a original hamon where I placed my clay mixture. A fellow knife maker suggested that my quench medium had different temperatures, cold at the bottom, hot at the top. I started looking around and found the water in there. I've since gone with straight oil and never had a similar issue.

It's fun messing with steel. It's amazing how easy 5160 and 01 are to work with compared to 1095. Although I really like 1095 for the hamon lines I can produce with it....

 

[JamesG]

For my quanchin oil i use canola oil for my quanching , since i use leaf spring and files. I heat the oil to 100 degres then quanch the blade.

 

[LRB]

How's it going James? Just a suggestion, but I believe you would find even better results, if you jacked the temp up another 25°. The extra heat will give you less of a vapor jacket when you quench, and a better, and more even hardening. You do good work, but give that a try, and see if it's not just a tad better yet. Little things can add up to greatness.

 

[JamesG]

thanks wick i try that i have a bowie that needs quanched.