12 gauge flinter dble-hevi shot??

[berickson]

i am sure this topic has been covered many times but i can't seem to find the info i need.

with the demise of bismuth i will have to go to hevi shot with a plastic cup.
ques- will i need a mylar wrap? what cups are best?
i used to use 2 cards over powder-1 over shot with bismuth. (1 1/8-2f)
those days are gone i'm afraid.

my chokes are mod+, ic+.

what has worked for others? all the info i found was for unchoked guns.
cheers.

 

[roundball]

These folks usually have a good selection:
[url] http://www.ballisticproducts.com/bpi/1welcome/welcome_shotgunners.htm[/url]

Also, unless you're specifically going after waterfowl, copper-plated shot is a good alternative over magnum lead to tighten patterns without a shotcup, and less expensive than the specialty shot

 

[guncobbler]

Didn't someone post an alternative source of bismuth shot in the past month or so or did that place get closed down too? This was the link. »http://www.huntersbismuth.com/home.html« Has anyone purchased any? I've sent an email to them to see if they still sell them. GC

 

[Joel/Calgary]

Also, unless you're specifically going after waterfowl, copper-plated shot is a good alternative over magnum lead to tighten patterns without a shotcup, and less expensive than the specialty shot

Unfortunately, Hornhead is discussing waterfowl, even though he didn't specify it in his post. We've talked about this off-forum. He does NOT like to fuss in the field, and his fixed conventional (not jug) chokes present a challenge in loading plastic shot protectors, especially the thick ones for steel and tungsten shot. His barrels were originally from a cartridge gun, but I don't know if they were/are suitable for steel shot (choke wall thickness).

Hornhead, what are your actual choke/muzzle diameters and how thick are the barrel walls at the muzzle?

One thought I had, if there is not a 12ga shotcup that is relatively easy to load, is to use a 16ga steel/tungsten wad (e.g B-P Multi-Metal) with a mylar liner. As I think about it more, though, there'd be the question of keeping it centered once it's past the choke.

Another thought I just had was Nice Shot produced by EcoTungsten - tungsten-iron in a tin matrix ([url] http://www.ecotungsten.com/shots.html http://www.niceshotinc.com/[/url] ). The density and hardness are similar to hard lead alloys and they claim that one can use regular shotcups, which would at least be easier to load through the chokes, and in non-steel-shot barrels. Whether it and/or Kent's Tungsten Matrix shot (tungsten-iron in a plastic matrix) could be be used without a shotcup is a question I've never seen addressed (hard tungsten-iron particles wearing through the tin or plastic matrix and abrading the bore).

guncobbler, I've seen discussion about & by Hunter's Bismuth on a shotgun board. To legally make "shot", they're trying to license the production-technique patent involved with the original bismuth shot and also trying to patent another technology. It sounded hopeful that they would eventually be in legal production, but the question was mostly one of when.

Joel

 

[berickson]

joel's right ... waterfowl ... sorry i didn't mention that.

barrels ?
thk diam
RB .06 .702
LB .07 .695

chokes checked out at
RB ic/mod (about 1/2 way on the gauge)
LB mod

i am actaully thinking any wad for 12 gauge steel should work. i am not sure of the diameter for wads tho. i'll have to take my micrometer to a gun store & see.
thx

 

[paulvallandigham]

Contackt Ballistics Products. You can find a link here under member resources. They can tell you the diameter of their heavy plastic wads, and help you find something that will work. I suspect they also are up to date on all the new non-toxic shot products, even if they don't carry them. ( Most are not yet available for reloaders.)

 

[berickson]

i finally get the picture joel/calg.
12ga wads .715
16ga .675

so i would have to use 16ga cups with mylar inserts to get 1 1/4oz. cuz the 16 ga wads won't take that much shot.

will b. called re bismuth. he's out but
i might have some news on that. i'll call him tomorrow.

 

[ffffg]

Slow way down hornhead, your sticking your nose into a meat grinder.. Better start with lead and some 12 gauge cups.. The cups wont want to go by the tighter chokes and can easily be ruined.. There is alot to this, some that doesnt even get discussed here.. The shot can exit the cup upon firing before it leaves the barrel, it tends to bounce.. Id use tungsten matrix, or tear apart some bismmuth loads with a choke and standard loads... (10 ga bismuth shells can be found for similar shot price as bulk) . Id wait for some better options than heavy shot, Unless you dont care about the barrels very much.. You need to discuss lube , nitro cards with the cups and etc. etc.. I think one key right now, is to have a waterfoul gun that you dont care about the barrel that much, or can be replaced.. Or simply use bismuth and wait a little bit, Good stuff is comming, give it some time.. Dave

 

[berickson]

fffg- i have slowed down. :grin: right now i have bismuth but i am trying to find info on hevi shot or other options.
i talked with the bismuth rep in alberta. they will be restarting production in a couple of weeks on bismuth. my guess is he/they have probably cut a deal with hunters bismuth.

first production run is 5&6 then later they will do the heavier shot.

d%$##d expensive tho, these non toxics.

he also stated from the info he has gotten from shooters - the trouble with hevi shot is the melting of the wads. that's my concern too.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The answer to burned cups is the same for burned Patches. Use an OP wad, or filler between the powder and those plastic cups. That is also the answer to getting cups down the barrel. Use a couple of OS cards( they are easily warped into a shallow " U " shape to get past that tight choke, and will turn to go down the barrel at right angles to the bore on the end of a ramrod with cleaning jag on it) over the powder as an OP wad, or gas sealer, Cut Off the plastic Cup that faces the bottom, as that skirt is the thing that gets damaged or stops you from loading the cup through the choke, anyway.load your shot, and then USE 2 OS Cards to seal in the shot. That will keep the shot from " Jumping " out of the cup. Also, use FFg powder rather than FFFg powder in your shotgun. The larger grained powder creates less pressure, and you are less likely to get a " bump" to your shot than if you use the smaller grain sized BP.

You are not going to replicate smokeless powder velocities easily with BP. You have to stuff a lot more of the powder into the barrel than smokeless. You do have to seal the gases behind your shotcup, and the seal has to be a lot better than the seal provided by the plastic cups themselves. you need to lube the barrel after seating the shot and OS cards to hold it in place. You have to reduce the distance you expect to be able to kill waterfowl from what you are used to using smokeless powder cartridge guns. The non-toxic shot just does not perform the same as lead. Mostly, the non-toxic shot is lighter, so you need to use larger sized pellets to get the same energy on the birds at any chosen distance. Loarger shot sizes are going to pattern differently than the more typical lead shot sizes for ducks and geese will pattern.

The steel used in Shotgun barrels today is a soft alloy, and it can be easily ruined by using unprotected steel shot, and even bismuth shot, that is not contained in a cup. Bismuth shot has the added problem of shattering easily, so that hot loads of powder tent to powder the bottom 2-3 rows of shot in the cups. That is one of the reason that Hevi-shot, the polymermatrix shot, and other non-toxic shot are being explored.

 

[berickson]

paulv:
thanks for the post. that was the kind of info i am looking for.

at present i'm using 2f : 1 1/8oz powder, 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 oz of bismuth (#4)
4s are a bit light for geese but if you pick your shots it does the trick. i stick within 20-30 yards. 30 yards being max.

so i am thinking (for hevi shot) 2 cards over powder, 1 felt wad lubed, plastic wad, shot, 2 OP cards.
i'll have to try different shot wads to see what will go by the chokes.
tonight i'll try have a peek down bore and see what's happening with the bismuth. i suspect not much cuz one doesn't shoot a ton of shot with muzzle loading.