12 gauge load confusion.

[k.jacobfrost]

I just got my first BP shotgun, bought it off of this forum.
I'm looking for wads and cards to buy so I can feed it but I'm confused about what I should be getting.
It's marked as a 12g and the cards/wads I'm finding give a diameter of ~.740.
When I measured the bore of my barrels they both come out to .688. The claim was that one is supposed to be cyl and the other modified chokes but this seems like full or possible extra full chokes, if it is actually a 12g like the gun says.
My biggest question is, should I just go with 12g wads/cards and force them in, or should I get some that are 14g which are around .703? Or is there another size I should be looking at?

 

[Britsmoothy]

Its choked by the sounds of it.
It will be a nightmare loading wads.

Just obtain over shot cards. They curl past the choke and the rammer squares them up after. Use three or four to act as a wad.
Leather also works well.
Thin Cork and felt also.
Forget fibre wads. They will frustrate you and are not necessary.
Cartridge gun wads and nitro cards tend to run a little to large for comfort.

Most modern reproductions have the bore measurement stamped on them.
If it is European build and 12g it should have an 18.3 or similar value.
Meaning 18.3mm bore diameter.

 

[drstrangelove]

I have similarly choked barrels. 1/4” felt wads soaked in olive oil and beeswax bend in easily enough to be a very good OP wad and two can also be used in your more open choked barrel as an OS wad to create a draft effect sky-chief load. I cannot use nitro cards or fiber wads in my gun. Won’t go past chokes. In the tighter barrel a thin cardboard OS card is all you need.

Another option is pre-made mandrel cartridges from Coffee filter nitrated paper.

 

[Feltwad]

Use a volume load powder two number 1/8 card wads , shot one 1/16 card over shot . Do not use any card less than 1/16 because these wads can be by passed by the ramrod and stick to the barrel walls , this then becomes a obstruction and will bulge or burst the barrel this is all you need
Feltwad

 

[Rudyard]

I was going to say maybe its a 14 bore but Felt Wad is onto it , I would figure an once of shot & 2& 3/4 drams . his square load measuer means by volume & it will be about that proportion .if the gun is sound this is .
Rudyard

 

[Britsmoothy]

Use a volume load powder two number 1/8 card wads , shot one 1/16 card over shot . Do not use any card less than 1/16 because these wads can be by passed by the ramrod and stick to the barrel walls , this then becomes a obstruction and will bulge or burst the barrel this is all you need
Feltwad

1/8 card aka nitro cards will not pass the full choke easily.
Four over shot cards will and be righted by a correct size rammer.

I have never ever had a thin card get stuck to the side of the barrel wall or left in the middle. I also don't see how it could happen unless on purpose.

 

[Feltwad]

Four thin wads on the powder would be ok but I prefer 2 1/8 card wads these I cut myself from sheets of industrial card these are not hard like nitro wads but if you can only get nitro wads make yourself a short starter of 3 inch long fitted with a ball to force them through the restriction . I must strongly point out on this type of wad never use the gun ramrod because with extra pressure the rod can easily break and leave a nasty wound in the side of your hand. For the overshot wad never go below 1/16 thick I have seen thinner ones been bypassed by the ramrod and left on the wall of the barrel and causes a obstruction . If you cannot get 1/16 overshot wads 2o3 of these thin wads can be used providing they are rammed down in one go . only trouble using these in number they leave the barrel like confetti .I have enclosed a image what happened to an original where a thin overshot wad was left on the barrel wall
Feltwad

 

[Britsmoothy]

Four thin wads on the powder would be ok but I prefer 2 1/8 card wads these I cut myself from sheets of industrial card these are not hard like nitro wads but if you can only get nitro wads make yourself a short starter of 3 inch long fitted with a ball to force them through the restriction . I must strongly point out on this type of wad never use the gun ramrod because with extra pressure the rod can easily break and leave a nasty wound in the side of your hand. For the overshot wad never go below 1/16 thick I have seen thinner ones been bypassed by the ramrod and left on the wall of the barrel and causes a obstruction . If you cannot get 1/16 overshot wads 2o3 of these thin wads can be used providing they are rammed down in one go . only trouble using these in number they leave the barrel like confetti .I have enclosed a image what happened to an original where a thin overshot wad was left on the barrel wall
FeltwadView attachment 70275

Your advice about the type of card and thickness is sage advice.
Regards the photograph and with respect Feltwad, we only have your word on what burst the barrel in your image.
I question it not to rile you at all but wish for clarity as I struggle to see how a single card could be rammed wrongly unnoticed by the loader prior to fring.
Also if a few cards were used as you suggest I still struggle how one would migrate off the load that high up the barrel.
Possibly trapped air but that should be apparent to the operator, no?
I would love to determine accurately here as to whether it was a thin cards fault or operator error??
I seem to also recall you displaying an image similar to this in relation to using plastic wads. I think the example you displayed was an 8g but I could be mistaken. What is the gauge of the gun in this photo please?

B.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Four thin wads on the powder would be ok but I prefer 2 1/8 card wads these I cut myself from sheets of industrial card these are not hard like nitro wads but if you can only get nitro wads make yourself a short starter of 3 inch long fitted with a ball to force them through the restriction . I must strongly point out on this type of wad never use the gun ramrod because with extra pressure the rod can easily break and leave a nasty wound in the side of your hand.

Thanks for the clarification of wad materials and the warning about the wooden rammer.

ALSO thank you for the image. I hope folks will note that the barrel is split, and didn't shatter into multiple pieces a-la a "pipe bomb" or hand grenade. I write this as it's been my observation from seeing black powder barrels of various steels "blown", that those that bulged or ruptured from a problem with Black Powder, as mentioned bulged, or split..., while those that fragmented into multiple pieces did so when smokeless powder was loaded due to operator error.

LD

 

[PADave]

Wad clarification helps.
No one injured I hope.

 

[Feltwad]

Well referring to your question on clarification I was with the person when the barrel burst on approaching him I though that he had mud in muzzle end and he informed me that it was the wads that had not fully seated and the ramrod was by passing them . I examined the wads he was using and they were very thin made by a certain company and half the thickness has a 1/16 overshot wad, they were more for a cartridge rolled turnover . I am 99% sure that the thin wad had been left on the barrel wall and when the gun was fired the wad opened up causing a obstruction which in turn burst the barrel. The gun in question was a original single barrel percussion 12 bore and luckily no one was hurt The question of plastic wads I have never know this type of wad to burst a barrel what I do know when used with black powder cause barrel ripple through melted plastic on the barrel walls this I have come across many times more so with Damascus barrel hammer guns .I think this has answered the question so to any member starting to shoot a sxs shotgun never use card wads less than 1/16 thick
Feltwad

 

[Old Hawkeye]

A lot of muzzle loading shotguns have barrels that don't quite match with the gauge they are supposed to be, so you need to measure what your true bore diameter is, not the choked diameter to get the correct fit for the cards/wads to use. If you don't have the proper measuring tools to get the bore diameter take it to someone who can measure what it is past the chokes. Full chokes are a .035" constriction from the bore diameter. So, if your bore is a true 12 gauge (.729") your choked diameter would be .694" Extra-Full(.040") would give a choked diameter of .689". Regardless, the diameter of the bore will dictate what wads/cards to use, not the diameter of the choke. Your cards/wads need to be about .010" larger then your bore. If not they will not seal the powder gases behind the shot & your gun will lack velocity & pattern poorly & your overshot card will come loose from recoil. If both your barrels measure .688" at the muzzle, neither is a cylinder barrel, but to determine their exact choke requires you to know the bore diameter so the the constriction can be calculated. Full & Extra-Full have been given above, the rest are Imp- Modified-.025", Modified-.019, Imp-Cylinder-.009". My 20 gauge measures as a 19 gauge & I have to use the larger cards & this is not uncommon with ML shotguns. You will have to start your cards vertically until they are past the choke, then turn them flat with the rammer to seat. Following is the bore diameter & the recommended card diameter for the gauges "around" 12 gauge. 11 gauge-.751" & .762", 12 gauge- .729" & .740", 13 gauge-.710" & .720", 14 gauge-.693" & .703". Track of the Wolf has all the various size cards & wads to match your needs. I just use 4 overshot cards or a cookie wad made from a lubed felt wad sandwiched between two cards over the powder & a single card over the shot. Adjust your powder & shot charges to find one that patterns well. K.I.S.S. All the cushion wads, fiber wads, oil soaked wads, etc. haven't shown to be any better, at least in my guns, than the simple methods I use. They just complicate the loading process, IMHO. Good luck!! BTW, I poke a pinhole in my overshot card to let the air out when seating it.

 

[Britsmoothy]

A lot of muzzle loading shotguns have barrels that don't quite match with the gauge they are supposed to be, so you need to measure what your true bore diameter is, not the choked diameter to get the correct fit for the cards/wads to use. If you don't have the proper measuring tools to get the bore diameter take it to someone who can measure what it is past the chokes. Full chokes are a .035" constriction from the bore diameter. So, if your bore is a true 12 gauge (.729") your choked diameter would be .694" Extra-Full(.040") would give a choked diameter of .689". Regardless, the diameter of the bore will dictate what wads/cards to use, not the diameter of the choke. Your cards/wads need to be about .010" larger then your bore. If not they will not seal the powder gases behind the shot & your gun will lack velocity & pattern poorly & your overshot card will come loose from recoil. If both your barrels measure .688" at the muzzle, neither is a cylinder barrel, but to determine their exact choke requires you to know the bore diameter so the the constriction can be calculated. Full & Extra-Full have been given above, the rest are Imp- Modified-.025", Modified-.019, Imp-Cylinder-.009". My 20 gauge measures as a 19 gauge & I have to use the larger cards & this is not uncommon with ML shotguns. You will have to start your cards vertically until they are past the choke, then turn them flat with the rammer to seat. Following is the bore diameter & the recommended card diameter for the gauges "around" 12 gauge. 11 gauge-.751" & .762", 12 gauge- .729" & .740", 13 gauge-.710" & .720", 14 gauge-.693" & .703". Track of the Wolf has all the various size cards & wads to match your needs. I just use 4 overshot cards or a cookie wad made from a lubed felt wad sandwiched between two cards over the powder & a single card over the shot. Adjust your powder & shot charges to find one that patterns well. K.I.S.S. All the cushion wads, fiber wads, oil soaked wads, etc. haven't shown to be any better, at least in my guns, than the simple methods I use. They just complicate the loading process, IMHO. Good luck!! BTW, I poke a pinhole in my overshot card to let the air out when seating it.

Unfortunately whilst your comments are true one can not assume every shotgun bore is to the exact nominal measurement for a given gauge.
I have hade shotguns in 12 gauge measure at the bore at .710" to .740". All were stamped 12g. The .710" had a full choke measuring .670"!
Again a flintlock of mine is stamped 20g but measures .629"!
It is the same with chokes. Any given choke nominal measurement designated by the industry is not a guarantee it will achieve the density of pattern hoped for but should be close.
When I have made card stampers I always aim for .030" over the bore measurement. .010" is not enough in my experience and I do not recommend that.
If the op has a European made gun it will have the bore diameter stamped on the barrels.

 

[Walkingeagle]

Well referring to your question on clarification I was with the person when the barrel burst on approaching him I though that he had mud in muzzle end and he informed me that it was the wads that had not fully seated and the ramrod was by passing them . I examined the wads he was using and they were very thin made by a certain company and half the thickness has a 1/16 overshot wad, they were more for a cartridge rolled turnover . I am 99% sure that the thin wad had been left on the barrel wall and when the gun was fired the wad opened up causing a obstruction which in turn burst the barrel. The gun in question was a original single barrel percussion 12 bore and luckily no one was hurt The question of plastic wads I have never know this type of wad to burst a barrel what I do know when used with black powder cause barrel ripple through melted plastic on the barrel walls this I have come across many times more so with Damascus barrel hammer guns .I think this has answered the question so to any member starting to shoot a sxs shotgun never use card wads less than 1/16 thick
Feltwad

Well I believe I am understanding your analysis of the cause of the burst barrel but then have a question. Many people will put tape over the end of a barrel to help with protection from the elements while on a hunt. The tape is blown open through the rush of air as the projectile(s) are pushed down the barrel upon charge ignition. If the thin wad/card is really that thin, would not it too just be thrown out of the barrel?
Walk

 

[Feltwad]

To tape the muzzle of a shotgun to keep out the elements and is not removed but shot through when fired is a new one on me . I personally would not recommend it too a new starter, but a thin card wad on the barrel wall will open up and put excessive pressure on a given spot and either bulge or burst a barrel
Feltwad

 

[Walkingeagle]

Again, it is not “shot through” but the rush of air bursts the tape prior to the arrival of the projectile(s).
Walk

 

[Rudyard]

I struggle with this mention of chokes, unless its a new made gun since original MLs don't have chokes as a rule .I have made new MLs that did have modern chokes but you had to be carefull on loading doing as Felt Wad suggests. ' Plas wads' I some times tried , didn't experience a problem but the hotter gasses of BP will ruin the plastic adapted cases when modified to pin fire so mostly just good for one use . However the AA type cases are so readily had that its just more work but since. I never shot clays just woodies & rabbits that this was hardly a consideration . I once went after Wood pigeon with a belt of 25 P F cases shot 8 woodie's over decoys in a stream bed' hide' and came home with 24 loaded cases as like a true muzzle loader I carried a flask ,wads, shot, & impliments to reload a split cardboard case then returning it to the breach to prevent the powder leaking out . Sootied up the chamber a bit but wasn't detrimental other wise ..However ime straying a bit into the' modern'? with such a gun but only just .
Rudyard

 

[k.jacobfrost]

The shotgun in question is a fairly new Pedersoli, I should have mentioned that in the original post. The barrels are marked 12gauge. If I was to try and get a bore measurement, how far down the barrel would I have to go to get past the choked area of the muzzle?

The person I bought the gun from said he used standard 12g cards, but he only shot it about 6 times.

Another option is pre-made mandrel cartridges from Coffee filter nitrated paper.

I have been thinking about trying to make "cartridges" like you describe. Would you be willing to share more information about it?

 

[Old Hawkeye]

Unfortunately whilst your comments are true one can not assume every shotgun bore is to the exact nominal measurement for a given gauge.
I have hade shotguns in 12 gauge measure at the bore at .710" to .740". All were stamped 12g. The .710" had a full choke measuring .670"!
Again a flintlock of mine is stamped 20g but measures .629"!
It is the same with chokes. Any given choke nominal measurement designated by the industry is not a guarantee it will achieve the density of pattern hoped for but should be close.
When I have made card stampers I always aim for .030" over the bore measurement. .010" is not enough in my experience and I do not recommend that.
If the op has a European made gun it will have the bore diameter stamped on the barrels.

If you will read my post again, other than your recommendation for a .030" oversize card, we are in full agreement. I did not say one could assume the nominal bore size was the same from gun to gun. If fact, I said just the opposite. I also said how much the choke constriction was would depend on the bore diameter. Not sure why you are confused about my post. I have two Pedersoli shotgins & the bore diameter is not stamped on my barrels. The barrels are stamped with a 0 & a 4, which I assume denotes the choke.

 

[Britsmoothy]

If you will read my post again, other than your recommendation for a .030" oversize card, we are in full agreement. I did not say one could assume the nominal bore size was the same from gun to gun. If fact, I said just the opposite. I also said how much the choke constriction was would depend on the bore diameter. Not sure why you are confused about my post. I have two Pedersoli shotgins & the bore diameter is not stamped on my barrels. The barrels are stamped with a 0 & a 4, which I assume denotes the choke.

My apologies. I rushed through your first comments.