1717 musket

[talbert]

I have an older model 1717 musket from M.H.
I see now the stocks are being made with the
"traditional" and what I assume is correct "cows
foot" profile...which sadly my version lacks...
which makes me wonder...is my version...(which
more closely resembles a brown bess profile)
even remotely period correct...or is a restock
or some other creative solution in order??

 

[talbert]

forgot to add that I am new to this forum
and this is my first...well actually now
my second post...

 

[Henry]

Some authors claim that almost 60% of XVIII th cent . guns
found today have been restoked .

The french 1717 was never imported by the time of the F&I
war , they came with the weapons sold by Beaumarchais
to the American Revolutionary Gvt ,( and never paid ,
Beaumarchais died very poor ) they were already old when
delivered to America , re-stoking is very probable.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Although the M.1717 were not imported till the AWI, the Karrer Regiment companies sent to Louisburg were issued M.1717 before they sailed. The companies at Quebec and in Louisiana were sent later and probably were issued the M.1728. Karrer bought guns for his regiment from St. Etienne from the 1720's. Granted, this means that very few ever came to North America, but there were a few. I doubt, however, that any actually made their way into other hands.

 

[talbert]

That does sound very reasonable...
Are there any thoughts on a Highland
connection? French arms provided to the
Jacobited for the 45 were confiscated and
reissued to newly formed Royal troops by
Cumberland...like the Blackwatch...is there
any evidance that 1717s were represented
here?

This musket style seems very "specialized"...
in its theater of operations so to speak...
Why did they even become semi-popular for
reenactors?

 

[Wes/Tex]

The French did indeed supply muskets to the Highlanders in the 2nd quarter of the 18th century as did the Spanish. There are a couple period paintings of the more influential posing with Migulet lock, Spanish made guns. The companies of the French regiment Royal-Ecossais probably were issued M.1728 muskets, as were the 'piquets' from the regiments Roth's, Dillon's Clare's, Bulkeley's Berwick's & Lally's (Irish). Most likely, the M.1717 and older models before the standardization of French muskets were shipped to Scotland for the Jacobites. Unfortunately, I've found no actual records of musket types.

 

[talbert]

Thanks for the information...

I have always wondered if the type
of musket a Highlander used was even
a consideration to him...maybe they were handed
out pre-loaded just before a "charge" at the
opposition...fired once in the general direction
of the enemy, and dropped to lay where they fell.

It is told how even the fancy steel mounted
pistols were hurled at the enemy after being
discharged...how could they ever be recovered?
Especially if they lost the battle...as at Culloden in the '45.

Cumberland confiscated all weapons in Jacobite
possession, under penelty of death.

The standard sling mounts on the 1717 would
have made it pretty handy though toting it
accross the Highlands...but the bayonet lug
would have not found much use...wish some
inventory did exist...as we will maybe never really know.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

I have always wondered if the type
of musket a Highlander used was even
a consideration to him...maybe they were handed
out pre-loaded just before a "charge" at the
opposition...fired once in the general direction
of the enemy, and dropped to lay where they fell.

It is told how even the fancy steel mounted
pistols were hurled at the enemy after being
discharged...how could they ever be recovered?
Especially if they lost the battle...as at Culloden in the '45.

Cumberland confiscated all weapons in Jacobite
possession, under penelty of death.

No doubt at all about the confiscation of weapons after Culloden but I have a hard time understanding where you came up with the concept of handing out loaded weapons before a charge so they could be thrown down after firing. That would be :youcrazy: ? The Highlanders were armed when they went in and kept their weapons with them until victory, death or surrender whenever they fought - weapons were too valuable and expensive to throw away, any soldier of any side and time period will tell you that. Claymores and dirks were great weapons but as the old saying goes, "You can have your "ka-nife, you can have your karate, but you don't mess with a ka-boom!" No matter what musket the Highlanders brought, they kept them throughout the fight, reloading them until given a GOOD reason to drop them.

 

[Story]

I have always wondered if the type
of musket a Highlander used was even
a consideration to him...maybe they were handed
out pre-loaded just before a "charge" at the
opposition...fired once in the general direction
of the enemy, and dropped to lay where they fell.

It is told how even the fancy steel mounted
pistols were hurled at the enemy after being
discharged...how could they ever be recovered?
Especially if they lost the battle...as at Culloden in the '45.

Cumberland confiscated all weapons in Jacobite
possession, under penelty of death.

No doubt at all about the confiscation of weapons after Culloden but I have a hard time understanding where you came up with the concept of handing out loaded weapons before a charge so they could be thrown down after firing. That would be :youcrazy: ? The Highlanders were armed when they went in and kept their weapons with them until victory, death or surrender whenever they fought - weapons were too valuable and expensive to throw away, any soldier of any side and time period will tell you that. Claymores and dirks were great weapons but as the old saying goes, "You can have your "ka-nife, you can have your karate, but you don't mess with a ka-boom!" No matter what musket the Highlanders brought, they kept them throughout the fight, reloading them until given a GOOD reason to drop them.

This researched and footnoted article would present a different perspective:
[url] http://www.annongul.i12.com/articles/The Weaponry of the Jacobite army.html[/url]


”˜Any man that served with the highlanders, knows that they fire but one shot & abandon their firelocks after. If there be any obstruction that hinders them of going on the enemy all is lost; they don’t like to be exposed to the enemy’s fire, nor can they resist it, not being trained to charge [load] as fast as regular troops, especially the English which are the troops in the world that fires best.’

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

http://www.annongul.i12.com/articles/The Weaponry of the Jacobite army.html[/url]


”˜Any man that served with the highlanders, knows that they fire but one shot & abandon their firelocks after. If there be any obstruction that hinders them of going on the enemy all is lost; they don’t like to be exposed to the enemy’s fire, nor can they resist it, not being trained to charge [load] as fast as regular troops, especially the English which are the troops in the world that fires best.’

Reasonably well researched if not footnoted - I bow to the conclusions of it's reenactor/historian writters.

 

[Stumpkiller]

It is told how even the fancy steel mounted
pistols were hurled at the enemy after being
discharged...how could they ever be recovered?
Especially if they lost the battle...as at Culloden in the '45.

At your leisure later, otherwise it didn't matter.

I had not heard that the pistols were ever deliberately thrown, but can't say it didn't happen. Anything to feint and parry the bayonet charge so you could get within broadsword range.

 

[talbert]

Sorry if my understanding is incorrect, but
I had been lead to beleive that muskets and pistols were discharged only once then literally
thrown away (or at the enemy if close enough)
and the famous "Highland" charge en-mass
then ensued...the principle weapons being
broad sword, targe and dirk with a few lochabers thrown in for measure....not to re-load and fire
repeatedly.

this refers to the Clans men...not to Royal troops...they were taught to load and fire
like the british...and to eventually break
the "Highland" charge with bayonet , as at
Culloden....

I assumed that when you throw anything down
on a battlefield, it will be very hard to
reclaim later....

As to pre-laoded muskets...the lac of Highland
cartridge boxes or blocks just made me wonder
about that...but maybe those were confiscated
after Culloden as well?

 

[talbert]

thanks for the footnoted reference...
I thought i would have to dig through
the book shelves all nite...I know I
have that in the library...but where.

sincerely

Talbert

 

[David Teague]

I assumed that when you throw anything down on a battlefield, it will be very hard to reclaim later....

Not if you were the winning side.

As to pre-laoded muskets...the lac of Highland cartridge boxes or blocks just made me wonder about that...but maybe those were confiscated after Culloden as well?

There was 2 types of Clansmen on the field that day with muskets.

The Front rankers... the cream of the clan and the
warriors. They had wealth and had their own sword, targe, pistol, dirk, and they wore the finest highland apparel. (They were only about 1/4 of a Highland army). They carried powder horns and ball in their sporrans for the most part. Some had custom made belly boxes.

The Mid Rankers were made up of the 'middle class" of the clan and had to be issued arms from the Laird's stores. ( They made up over half of the Higland army)

At Culloden, these were the men issued either the French Musket or one of the captured Brown Besses that had been seized at the battle of Prestonpans (The Scots had captured 1600 British troops and their equipment.)If they had the French musket, they were issued French cartridge boxes, bayonet, frog, belt, and a French spontoon style sword(Epee du Soldat). If they had the Bess, it was captured English gear and a hanger. The city of Edinburgh was forced to supply the Jacobites with 2000 targes. These too, went to the mid rankers.

Here is a UK reenactor I know as a mid ranker with French gear.

I hope this:

1.Helps.

2. Made sense.

Cheers,

David Teague

 

[benvenuto]

Throwing the pistols at someone may have happened once or twice in history, but it was not common practice.

I have heard about muskets being dropped just before the charge struck home to allow swords to be drawn, but always assumed they would have been picked up and reloaded by a kinsman or retainer following behind the front ranks. The tragic thing about these battles was you were standing shoulder to shoulder with all your family and neighbours, people you knew intimately. If the battle went well you could be fairly certain of getting your property back, if not there would be nobody left alive who could claim inheritance rights anyway.

It would be interesting to know if any authenticated Jacobite firearms were "marked for identification"

 

[Wes/Tex]

There are several sources that comment about the all metal pistols being tossed at the enemy but I've never actually an original account that says something like, "...then they chunked their pistols at us". Guns had been a fairly new addition to the fighting weapons of Highland troops...say less than 100 years. The Celtic weapon of choice since the days of Rome had been cold steel (actually iron but what-the-hey). Most of the fighting duing the Jacobite era had been fought by shooting once and dropping the guns to deal with the enemy with broadswords, assorted short swords, even farm implements and ancient weapons. Generally this ferocious attack style had worked, at such places as Killiecrankie and Falkirk. Not until there was serious organized and disciplined volley-fire did the old Highland charge run into trouble.

 

[benvenuto]

I believe firearms were introduced to the highlands in a big way in the 1470's. I remember reading a proclamation by the king denouncing murders and raids carried out with "crossbows and little hagbuts"
Savage times!

 

[netoleon]

Interesting off-topic....My "10-minute research project" on that dredged this up:

Quoting "an old writer" (otherwise unattributed)a reviewer of The Abbot, by Sir Walter Scott, quotes this description of the battle of Killiecrankie...

"Where the worthy Lord Hume fought on foot with his pike in his hand very manfully, assisted by the Laird of Cessford, his brother-in-law, who
helped him up again when he was strucken to the ground by many strokes upon his face, through the throwing pistols at him after they had been discharged. He was also wounded with staves, and had many strokes of spears through his legs; for he and Grange, at the joining, cried to let their adversaries first lay down their spears, to bear up theirs; which spears were so thick fixed in the others' jacks, that some of the pistols and great staves that were thrown by them which were behind, might be seen lying upon the spears."

Certainly not even close to conclusive without corroboration, and more so because of the early date. But adds some creedence to the oft mentioned practice of throwing pistols.