1838 Pomeroy Type III

[R. S. Morris]

I have this1838 Musket. I have learned a lot about it but trying to learn more. It is a Pomeroy made in 1838 So should be a M1822/28 or Type III. Converted to percussion I understand sometime around 1850. Has two Arsenal cartouches, one is Joseph Hannis and the other I believe is Mann Page Lomax. The barrel has extensive corrosion/erosion around the nipple area. The stock is much darker than shows in the pics. Still trying to figure out why the ramrod sticks out so far. I will post pics of the cartouche I am trying to id in the next post.

 

[NorthFork]

WOW!

 

[D. Buck Stopshere]

I wonder if the barrel has been cut about an inch. The muzzle seems a little uneven. Measure from the join line of the tang/barrel to the muzzle. It needs to be exactly 42". The OAL should be 57 & 11/16".

There may be two reasons for the ramrod's position. One would be "trash" in the ramrod channel at the breech. The other possibility might be the forward lock screw is "out of position". If you remove the forward lock screw, it may have a slight "cut away" on the screw shank, allowing the ramrod to pass across the screw. Not likely, but I have seen it in originals and contemporary rifles.

**** the hammer to half-****. Unscrew the lock screws from the lock, then screw both in about a half-turn of the screws. Then, using a plastic mallet, carefully tap the screw heads to "push" the lock out of the lock mortise. Remove the lock. You should be able to see the end of the ramrod inside the lock mortise.

Hope this helps.

 

[R. S. Morris]

I wonder if the barrel has been cut about an inch or two. The muzzle seems a little uneven. Measure from the join line of the tang/barrel to the muzzle. It needs to be exactly 42". The OAL should be 57 & 11/16".

From where the breech plug joins the barrel it is exactly 42". The muzzle is a little uneven. this musket is very worn.

 

[R. S. Morris]

I wonder if the barrel has been cut about an inch. The muzzle seems a little uneven. Measure from the join line of the tang/barrel to the muzzle. It needs to be exactly 42". The OAL should be 57 & 11/16".

There may be two reasons for the ramrod's position. One would be "trash" in the ramrod channel at the breech. The other possibility might be the forward lock screw is "out of position". If you remove the forward lock screw, it may have a slight "cut away" on the screw shank, allowing the ramrod to pass across the screw. Not likely, but I have seen it in originals and contemporary rifles.

**** the hammer to half-****. Unscrew the lock screws from the lock, then screw both in about a half-turn of the screws. Then, using a plastic mallet, carefully tap the screw heads to "push" the lock out of the lock mortise. Remove the lock. You should be able to see the end of the ramrod inside the lock mortise.

Hope this helps.

I have had the lock out several times. You cannot see the ramrod in the space. There is wood above the ramrod channel. I can post a pic tomorrow. Even with the lock out the ramrod is hitting something hard. I have been trying to figure what the ramrod is hitting. It could be metallic or just very hard wood from being hit for 100+years.

 

[D. Buck Stopshere]

Is the (breech) end of the ramrod threaded?

 

[R. S. Morris]

Is the (breech) end of the ramrod threaded?

No it is not. The ramrod is 39 15/16 long.

 

[Eterry]

The ramrod could be a battle field replacement, or just made an inch longer than others.
Many period pics of civilian muzzleloaders had very long ramrods.

Very nice piece, btw.

 

[R. S. Morris]

The ramrod could be a battle field replacement, or just made an inch longer than others.
Many period pics of civilian muzzleloaders had very long ramrods.

Very nice piece, btw.

That's what some others are thinking also. I have no intention of replacing it, Just curious why it is that way.

 

[D. Buck Stopshere]

Since your ramrod is 39 & 15/16" in length, the only plausible explanation is that the other 2 & 1/16" original end of your ramrod in still in the ramrod channel at the lock area.

I have a Model 1816, Type II, made at Springfield in 1827, and I measured the ramrod, which is threaded for appendages such as a worm for patches, and a ball screw for removing a ball. The ramrod length is a "hair around" 42".

With the barrel empty, the platoon sergeant would have given the command to "spring rammer", and each soldier in the platoon ranks would drop the ramrod in the barrel, which would produce a "clang", and the threaded end would measure even with the muzzle, declaring it unloaded and safe.

I believe this is the reason for the metallic sound you hear. There could be something in the ramrod channel between the "broken off" end of the ramrod and the rest of the ramrod you have that might position it where it is now. Think of a "sandwich".

 

[R. S. Morris]

There is actually something in the barrel. About 2" in length. What I feel with the ramrod is paper. I don't know what is behind the paper. I have tried compressed air through the nipple but that did nothing. In this area there are no gunsmiths that work on muzzle loaders. Could be an unfired shot, could be a note, I have no idea.

 

[R. S. Morris]

The second circle is a cartouche I believe is Mann Page Lomax. The one below is from a Musket in better shape than mine. To me, this looks like the same signature.

This is the cartouche of Mann Page Lomax on another 1839 Musket in a lot better shape than mine.

 

[R. S. Morris]

The ramrod could be a battle field replacement, or just made an inch longer than others.
Many period pics of civilian muzzleloaders had very long ramrods.

Very nice piece, btw.

Thank you ....This one has arsenal cartouches so I don't think it was made for the civilian market

 

[Eterry]

Thank you ....This one has arsenal cartouches so I don't think it was made for the civilian market

Oh I never thought it was made for the civilian market...it obviously is a martial arm.
My point was(and is) that a ramrod need not be flush with the muzzle. Other than possibly interfering with the bayonet, the extended ramrod has no negative effect, other than aesthetics.

 

[Eterry]

There is actually something in the barrel. About 2" in length. What I feel with the ramrod is paper. I don't know what is behind the paper. I have tried compressed air through the nipple but that did nothing. In this area there are no gunsmiths that work on muzzle loaders. Could be an unfired shot, could be a note, I have no idea.

As much as I don't recommend removing the breach plug, it might be worthwhile in this case.
The paper might be nothing, but I have heard of notes or old newsprint telling of the weapon's use. I, being a curious sort, would love to see what if anything is written on it.

 

[R. S. Morris]

Oh I never thought it was made for the civilian market...it obviously is a martial arm.
My point was(and is) that a ramrod need not be flush with the muzzle. Other than possibly interfering with the bayonet, the extended ramrod has no negative effect, other than aesthetics.

Awesome, thank you, just what I needed to know.

 

[R. S. Morris]

As much as I don't recommend removing the breach plug, it might be worthwhile in this case.
The paper might be nothing, but I have heard of notes or old newsprint telling of the weapon's use. I, being a curious sort, would love to see what if anything is written on it.

That is the main reason why I want to be very careful removing it from the barrel. The breach plug seems to be seized in the barrel at this point. I don't want to bugger it up. I don't want to put any oil in the barrel cause I don't want to mess up the paper. It's supposed to rain all day tomorrow, may just take it to the garage and play with it and see if I can get it out.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Corrosive caps!
The real cause of pitted original barrels!

 

[R. S. Morris]

Corrosive caps!
The real cause of pitted original barrels!

Good to know....thanks

 

[R. S. Morris]

I was finally able to get the "paper" out of the barrel. I have no idea what this is. It is made of I believe plastic or rubber with little ducks on it.... Can anyone id it....There does appear to be a lead ball in there also. Yesterday, I made a home-brew ball puller by welding a steel sheetrock screw onto two metal rods forming a long "T" It will screw into the lead but it is not budging. I poured some thin oil into the barrel yesterday and let it sit overnight. Will see what happens tomorrow.