1851 colt navy and 1848 colt dragoon

[eggwelder]

Looking at purchasing one or the other. Both are made by colt, both 2nd Generation, cap and ball. Both in really good shape as well.
with our laws changing up here in Canada daily it seems, i want to get into the hand gun game before they are banned or whatnot.
1851 is in .36
1848 is .44

Thoughts on these in comparison to the Italian jobs?


i am a hand gun neophyte, Black powder is my thing so i might as well go with one of these instead of a suppository example.

 

[Bob McBride]

Someone with more knowledge can speak to that with certainty. I’ve found the finish better on the Colt Seconds but the arbor and wedge fit issues about the same. I have a had many Colts and now own a low serial number 1860 2nd and have owned many Ubertis and have had to fit about half the Colt 2nds and about half the Ubertis. The Colts are tuned/timed much better but the Ubertis are fine. I have no experience with Piettas but I heard they’re pretty good these days.

 

[Musketeer]

What are you going to do with whichever one you get? If you're going to be carrying it around out in the woods, the 1851 is significantly lighter and more handy than the big honkin' Dragoon. The Dragoon packs way more punch and will make a bigger boom when touched off, if that's your thing. Lead and powder will go a bit further in the .36 caliber, though you can load down on the powder in the big .44 and use filler (corn meal, Cream of Wheat, etc.) on top of the powder to take up the extra room, so the ball firmly compresses the powder upon loading. Overall, I'd say the Navy is a more practical handgun for many purposes, but the Dragoon is an impressive chunk of iron and my Italian replica Dragoon puts a bigger smile on my face when I touch it off than my smaller revolver do.

 

[Kansas Jake]

If prices are reasonable and you have the funds I would get both. You can use the same powder and caps in either. The big difference is having two different size balls. As Musketeer noted they have different uses. If you only get the one, you will regret it later if they were reasonably priced. If you don't like one, you can always sell it. The chances of losing a lot of money are slim. I don't have a firearm that is worth less today than I paid for it. Granted if I had to do a "fire sale" I could have some losses, otherwise they are good investments.

 

[Boston Bill]

What are you going to do with whichever one you get? If you're going to be carrying it around out in the woods, the 1851 is significantly lighter and more handy than the big honkin' Dragoon. The Dragoon packs way more punch and will make a bigger boom when touched off, if that's your thing. Lead and powder will go a bit further in the .36 caliber, though you can load down on the powder in the big .44 and use filler (corn meal, Cream of Wheat, etc.) on top of the powder to take up the extra room, so the ball firmly compresses the powder upon loading. Overall, I'd say the Navy is a more practical handgun for many purposes, but the Dragoon is an impressive chunk of iron and my Italian replica Dragoon puts a bigger smile on my face when I touch it off than my smaller revolver do.

I have not seen anything on how to add the corn meal after the powder. Do you use a 2nd flask? How do you keep the corn meal from being contaminated with moisture?

 

[DOUBLEDEUCE 1]

Colt. Navy and Dragoon, if you can. If not, Uberti.

 

[eggwelder]

I want both, but cannot buy both At the same time. I am leaning to the dragoon, it will go nicely with the 1863 remington and already have a rb mold for it
i think they are reasonably priced, and i`m sure he`s open to offers.
Christmas has kicked the manure out of my gun budget

there is also an uberti navy in 36 as well

we can`t carry the reproductions around in the woods in Canada, only antique originals. Reproductions are restricted and only useable on a range.

 

[Musketeer]

I have not seen anything on how to add the corn meal after the powder. Do you use a 2nd flask? How do you keep the corn meal from being contaminated with moisture?

You could use a second flask or just have a container of filler and a suitably sized scoop, such as one from the well known Lee kit: Powder Measure Kit - Lee Precision or something homemade. The moisture question I cannot answer, as it's never been an issue in my location.

 

[Boston Bill]

You could use a second flask or just have a container of filler and a suitably sized scoop, such as one from the well known Lee kit: Powder Measure Kit - Lee Precision or something homemade. The moisture question I cannot answer, as it's never been an issue in my location.

lol, I just happen to have the Lee powder measure set! Excellent idea. Thank you. BB

 

[Notchy Bob]

One of the better shooters in our local club used yellow corn meal that he kept in a repurposed "honey bear" squeeze bottle. I think he may have trimmed the tip back just a bit to make a larger orifice, but he left the little ridge on the spout so the red cap would still snap on. Not exactly traditional, but it worked great. In fact, I had one myself when I was shooting revolvers more. I'll see if I can find it.

There was no issue with clumping if the device is used regularly, and places just don't get any more humid than Florida, where I live.

Notchy Bob

 

[Notchy Bob]

Gun Tests online reviewed three Colt second-generation cap & ball revolvers and published the results in 2013. These were an 1851 Navy, and 1860 Army, and a Second-Model Dragoon. All three were acquired as used guns by the Gun Tests staff, and had evidently been gunsmithed to some extent by a previous owner. The report is right here: Second Generation Cap & Ball Sixguns They had very positive remarks with respect to these Colt Second-Generation revolvers, especially the quality of the finish, but not everyone agrees with them when it comes to actually shooting these guns.

Gun Tests also compared Second-Model Dragoons from Colt, EMF, and Cimarron in a separate test, which you can read here: Second Dragoons on Trial. I thought this second article was more objective than the first, and found it very informative and well-written. It was noteworthy that both the EMF and Cimarron guns were made by Uberti, but the EMF revolver had an antiqued finish. The article has a lot to say about this. Evidently, the antiquing process used by EMF, at least at that time, involved an acid bath, and the bore (and I assume the cylinder chambers) was not protected. So, the bore was "antiqued," too! There was a lively discussion of "antique" or "distressed" revolver finishes on this forum recently. After reading the Gun Tests report, if I wanted that type of finish on a revolver, I believe I would buy a blued gun and distress it myself, using instructions discussed in that thread.

Interestingly, the evaluation team also tested all three Dragoons with Goex FFg, KIK FFFg. Triple Seven, and Pyrodex. I don't want to re-write the article, but the upshot was that the Cimarron Dragoon was the best of the lot, and real black powder was the best propellant.

So, if you are interested in getting a Second-Generation Colt, or more specifically a Dragoon, both of these articles are worth reading, but I would highly recommend the second. I was able to print it out a couple of years ago, and it had individual "spec sheets" for each of the three revolvers. I think Gun Tests may have re-formatted their website in the interim and you may not be able to see the spec sheets, but it's still worth reading.

Just for the record, I bought a Uberti First Model Dragoon through Mike Brackett of Goons Gun Works a couple of years ago. Mike is not really a dealer, but in this case he knew of a dealer in his area that had one of these, so he bought it for me and tuned it up. I had actually located a Colt Second Generation Dragoon that I was going to send him, but I ended up going with the Uberti based on his recommendation, since I wanted it as a shooter rather than a showpiece. If you have not handled a Dragoon before, you need to prepare yourself for the fact that this is a big revolver, a real handful. I have read of people crossing the plains in the 19th century killing buffalo with them.

Good luck to you!

Notchy Bob

 

[Stantheman86]

What is the consensus, that 1st Gen "Colt Signature Series" percussion revolvers were raw parts from Uberti that were finished and fitted by Colt ?

2nd Gen is the same? Or did Uberti do a little more finish work?

I recall the final Gen simply being Uberti stock revolvers that Colt added the logos to.

Colt did not "make these from scratch" using old tooling and dies, but they're still neat and Colt did have a part in the manufacturing.

There was an urban legend that Remington made an entire batch of 1858s in house , at their NY factory in the 90s but no one seems to know anything about them.

 

[Boston Bill]

Somehow, I got timed out of my last post before I could finish editing. Here is the complete version:

Gun Tests online reviewed three Colt second-generation cap & ball revolvers and published the results in 2013. These were an 1851 Navy, and 1860 Army, and a Second-Model Dragoon. All three were acquired as used guns by the Gun Tests staff, and had evidently been gunsmithed to some extent by a previous owner. The report is right here: Second Generation Cap & Ball Sixguns They had very positive remarks with respect to these Colt Second-Generation revolvers, especially the quality of the finish, but not everyone agrees with them when it comes to actually shooting these guns.

Gun Tests also compared Second-Model Dragoons from Colt, EMF, and Cimarron in a separate test, which you can read here: Second Dragoons on Trial. I thought this second article was more objective than the first, and found it very informative and well-written. It was noteworthy that both the EMF and Cimarron guns were made by Uberti, but the EMF revolver had an antiqued finish. The article has a lot to say about this. Evidently, the antiquing process used by EMF, at least at that time, involved an acid bath, and the bore (and I assume the cylinder chambers) was not protected. So, the bore was "antiqued," too! There was a lively discussion of "antique" or "distressed" revolver finishes on this forum recently. After reading the Gun Tests report, if I wanted that type of finish on a revolver, I believe I would buy a blued gun and distress it myself, using instructions discussed in that thread.

Interestingly, the evaluation team also tested all three Dragoons with Goex FFg, KIK FFFg. Triple Seven, and Pyrodex. I don't want to re-write the article, but the upshot was that the Cimarron Dragoon was the best of the lot, and real black powder was the best propellant.

So, if you are interested in getting a Second-Generation Colt, or more specifically a Dragoon, both of these articles are worth reading, but I would highly recommend the second. I was able to print it out a couple of years ago, and it had individual "spec sheets" for each of the three revolvers. I think Gun Tests may have re-formatted their website in the interim and you may not be able to see the spec sheets, but it's still worth reading.

Just for the record, I bought a Uberti First Model Dragoon through Mike Brackett of Goons Gun Works a couple of years ago. Mike is not really a dealer, but in this case he knew of a dealer in his area that had one of these, so he bought it for me and tuned it up. I had actually located a Colt Second Generation Dragoon that I was going to send him, but I ended up going with the Uberti based on his recommendation, since I wanted it as a shooter rather than a showpiece. If you have not handled a Dragoon before, you need to prepare yourself for the fact that this is a big revolver, a real handful. I have read of people crossing the plains in the 19th century killing buffalo with them.

Good luck to you!

Notchy Bob

lol, easier to handle than a .500 caliber unmentionable

 

[Old Hawkeye]

What is the consensus, that 1st Gen "Colt Signature Series" percussion revolvers were raw parts from Uberti that were finished and fitted by Colt ?

2nd Gen is the same? Or did Uberti do a little more finish work?

I recall the final Gen simply being Uberti stock revolvers that Colt added the logos to.

Colt did not "make these from scratch" using old tooling and dies, but they're still neat and Colt did have a part in the manufacturing.

There was an urban legend that Remington made an entire batch of 1858s in house , at their NY factory in the 90s but no one seems to know anything about them.

The "Signature Series" is the 3rd generation Colt from the 1990-early 2000's, not 1st generation. You are correct that the 3rd generation Colts were "assembled" by Colt. The 2nd generation Colts were made from scratch by Colt in Hartford. Not sure any of this means all that much, as my Uberti 1851 Navy exceeds any of the 2nd or 3rd Generation Colts from a fit & finish standpoint, as well as a shooting accuracy standpoint. But, I think that is more a random QC issue than an overall judgement about these revolvers.

 

[sourdough]

The 2nd generation Colts were made from scratch by Colt in Hartford.

That is incorrect. Colt did not possess the tooling to manufacture the raw parts. The parts were made by Uberti and sent to Colt for finishing. Insofar as the 3rd Gen parts, Uberti parts were used and ASM made some of them under subcontract to Uberti. When Colt decided to cease and desist with the 3rd Gen revolvers, ASM was left with some barrels with the Colt address, which they tried to market and Colt sued them. There are some ASM guns around sporting Colt barrel addresses, very rare.

Don't take my word for it. Eric Deaton has a new book out about those Colt revolvers. It is available on Ebay or directly from Eric using a USPS MO for $62:

A USPS money order would be fine paid to Eric Deaton. Send to:
1387 Crawford Road
New Lebanon, OH 45345
Just $62 and thanks for supporting a new author. Hope you like it and put a good review out on the Colt Forum and any others that you belong to.
Regards,
Eric

Regards,

Jim

 

[Notchy Bob]

I think the short-lived U.S. Firearms, which famously set up shop in the old Colt factory, "under the blue dome," was tooling up to produce Colt-styled percussion revolvers at one point, but as far as I know they never got that project off the ground. They made excellent reproductions of Colt's SAA cartridge revolvers (I have more than one), but then began to diversify into semi-autos and some guns of their own design, and they eventually went under. I think they lost their focus. The guns they did make were top notch, better than "the real thing." I was really hoping to see some percussion revolvers coming out of Hartford again, but as far as I know, it never came to pass. I've wondered if a few prototypes might have been made, but that is pure speculation on my part. Sourdough might know.

Notchy Bob

 

[Stantheman86]

USFA made top notch revolvers and they bring a huge premium. They made a super high quality Colt 1910 and 1911. Museum quality stuff. I was trying to get an Omnipotent shipped to my dealer when they folded up in 2006ish.

The CEO was a nutcase and had them working on a million different oddball projects like an 19-shot .22 revolver .

Percussion Colts from USFA would have been masterpieces. I'd have been in for an 1860 Army.

I had always hoped someone would tool up and make a high quality American made 1863 Springfield, kinda like an American version of the Parker-Hale Enfields . They'd cost $3-5000 but I believe you'd get enough buyers to justify a run of a few 10,000 rifles. The lack of a need of an FFL transfer in most states would be an incentive.

 

[eggwelder]

I`m liking the dragoon, the one i was looking at sold, but there are lots out there. I`ve only recently taken an interest in them.

 

[Notchy Bob]

Regarding US Patent Firearms, I bought one of their "Rodeo" unmentionables some years ago, and this manual was in the box:

A carefully worded manual, printed in an old-timey style, covering care and loading for the percussion revolvers that never came to be. It is really too bad that the company lost its focus in firearms production. Half a dozen of the most popular models of percussion revolvers, built as accurate reproductions of the original Colts and produced up to the same standards as the USFA cartridge revolvers, would have been well received by shooters and collectors even at two or three times the price of the imports.

Ah, well...

Notchy Bob

 

[fireman1]

I love the Colt's Dragoon. Had to sell a a few off and that is one of my biggest regrets.