1856 Enfield Cavalry Carbine - Indian Replica

[Cal S]

Hello all!

This is my first post as a new member and I'm joining this forum in hopes to gather some answers/advice regarding a new smooth bore I picked up at a gun show yesterday, my first non-centerfire gun. It's got all the looks of the 1856 Enfield Cavalry Carbine to include the hinge-captured ramrod. Evidently an Indian reproduction. Looking it over on the left side of the receiver, it has written:
"Narain Jagannath Sikligar Udaipur ###18
1\63 1972 Export made in India" (the backslash is correct, not rifling)
On the right and top it has ballistic information:
".729 not nitro 89 grs 1 1/4oz"

If I interpret it correctly, that means it fires a .70-cal ball with a 89-grain or 1.25 oz charge of powder (ffg)? Some similar replicas apparently fire .62-cal balls, while other sources say .577-cal. But, mine measures .720" across the muzzle with no visible taper. That opens up some versatility as a shotgun, haha. It's got fouling in the breech that is indicative of it having been fired, and the gun certainly looks and feels solid, so I feel confident it's a firing replica.

Could I have some advice, please? Is my interpretation of the information on the side of the receiver correct? Any problem with it shooting ball ammo? Does that powder charge sound right for ffg, or is there a better powder for it? Also, what size percussion caps should I get for this? The percussion cap receptical measures .220". Thank you all in advance!

 

[Britsmoothy]

Yeah, just load it. 3f or what ever.
A .710" ball and no patch should work fine.
Looks like it uses musket caps. Or top hats, that's another name for them.
Have fun.

B.

 

[Gun Tramp]

I suggest it may accommodate 89 grains of black powder but likely not 1 1/4 oz. That might refer to a maximum shot charge; one and a quarter ounces equals 547 grains. Shot charge is typically equal by VOLUME to powder charge.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Since it shows evidence of having been fired, do a thorough cleaning. Remove the nipple and run a coarse bristled pipe cleaner through the flash channel. Fouling from firing a muzzleloader produces very corrosive fouling that is easily cleaned with water and a bit of grease cutting soap. The barrel needs to be dried and a rust inhibiting lubricant applied for storage. Wipe the bore with a patch dampened with rubbing alcohol before going shooting.

Gun Tramp is correct. The suggested charge is 89 (90) grains, volume measure, black powder or black powder substitutes. I recommend using 2fg black powder or the coarsest black powder substitute. You don't need the faster 3fg powder for best performance. It often has too high a pressure that opens shot patterns at most hunting distances. The 1 1/4 ounce recommendation is for the shot charge. You will need 12 gauge over powder wads and over shot cards.

Your carbine takes the larger musket top hat percussion caps.

The 0.729 is the bore diameter. The carbine is a 12 gauge cylinder bore smoothbore. Cleaning accessories for a 12 gauge will work for your carbine.

Do get a volume measure for your powder charge. The same measure of volume can be used for shot. Groups tend to tighten with reduction of powder charge. Often 80 grains, volume, of powder pushing a 90 grain volume measure of shot will produce a tighter pattern than using 90 grains volume powder and shot. Do a search on the forums for the Skychief loading for further insight into improving shot patterns.

Your carbine can safely shoot 0.700 or 0.710" diameter round balls. These can be fired over wads or using a 0.015" thick lubricated patch. Lubricant from spit, to mixtures of soaps, water soluble oils, or waxes and grease can be used. Keep it simple at first and use spit or dish washing soap for patch lubricant.

Enjoy your new muzzleloader.

 

[cositrike]

View attachment 20369 Hello all!

This is my first post as a new member and I'm joining this forum in hopes to gather some answers/advice regarding a new smooth bore I picked up at a gun show yesterday, my first non-centerfire gun. It's got all the looks of the 1856 Enfield Cavalry Carbine to include the hinge-captured ramrod. Evidently an Indian reproduction. Looking it over on the left side of the receiver, it has written:
"Narain Jagannath Sikligar Udaipur ###18
1\63 1972 Export made in India" (the backslash is correct, not rifling)
On the right and top it has ballistic information:
".729 not nitro 89 grs 1 1/4oz"

If I interpret it correctly, that means it fires a .70-cal ball with a 89-grain or 1.25 oz charge of powder (ffg)? Some similar replicas apparently fire .62-cal balls, while other sources say .577-cal. But, mine measures .720" across the muzzle with no visible taper. That opens up some versatility as a shotgun, haha. It's got fouling in the breech that is indicative of it having been fired, and the gun certainly looks and feels solid, so I feel confident it's a firing replica.

Could I have some advice, please? Is my interpretation of the information on the side of the receiver correct? Any problem with it shooting ball ammo? Does that powder charge sound right for ffg, or is there a better powder for it? Also, what size percussion caps should I get for this? The percussion cap receptical measures .220". Thank you all in advance!

My opinion is that the 89grains refers to the maximum recommended powder charge.

 

[Zonie]

Warning Cal S:
1 1/4 ounces of black powder is not 89 grains.
There are 7000 grains in 1 pound of powder so there are 7000/16 = 437.5 grains in one ounce. 1 1/4 ounces of powder would be equal to 546.875 grains of powder.
The bottom line is, do not try to measure a powder load using something that weighs things in ounces.

A powder measure made for measuring out black powder loads is made to measure the powder in grains so that is what you should be using.

IMO, a 89 or 90 grain powder load in a .70 caliber gun should be just about right.

 

[Cal S]

Thanks, everyone! That's a lot of information for this newbie to digest, but I will be unpacking it.

Much appreciated!

 

[bisleyjohn]

Like all home loading, the best advice is 'start light and work up.
Enjoy your gun.

 

[Stantheman86]

I like it, the same carbines in .65 Smoothbore were made in India for Colonial troops and police after the Mutiny.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Sikligar has been making black powder guns for decades in Udaipur India. (Since 1959) Per current Indian Law, all firearms are to be stamped with the maker, date and town. They were still in business when I last checked. https://mksikligar.com/ I have ordered gun parts directly from them. I got them very quickly and were finished quite well

 

[Stantheman86]

I think the .65 Enfields had been in continuous production with various Indian gunmakers since the 1850s , they just made some in 12 gauge apparently.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Val Forgett imported several hundred Indian made double barrels and sold them under the Navy Arms brand.

 

[Cal S]

MKS

Cool, thanks for the URL, that's great to know!

 

[Cal S]

I think the .65 Enfields had been in continuous production with various Indian gunmakers since the 1850s , they just made some in 12 gauge apparently.

Yes, I was wondering if it was because Indian cavalry would have to deal with elephants and other dangerous game and hence the increased chamber size.

 

[Stantheman86]

They went to .65 Smoothbore muskets after the Mutiny so that Indian soldiers would not have weapons parity with British soldiers , armed with .577 rifled weapons.

Originals of both the P59 .65 3-bander and the .65 Carbine pop up here and there but Loyalist Arms offers the .65 Carbine.

 

[Cal S]

They went to .65 Smoothbore muskets after the Mutiny so that Indian soldiers would not have weapons parity with British soldiers , armed with .577 rifled weapons.

Originals of both the P59 .65 3-bander and the .65 Carbine pop up here and there but Loyalist Arms offers the .65 Carbine.

That actually makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the history!

 

[Cal S]

I do have another question, though, and it might be a noob one. I prepped it with powder and ball before going to the range tomorrow for its first firing. As I was pushing down the ball with the ramrod I heard a rushing of air from under the hammer. Of course, it was air displaced by the force of physics. However, when I half-cocked the hammer to take a look, I noticed that the nipple was jam-packed with the ffg black powder substitute I had used to charge it. If I had half-cocked the hammer while loading it, it would have started spilling out.

Is that a problem? I under-loaded it with ~65gr of powder substitute (as mentioned above the max powder charge is 89grs) so I'm certain it's not over-filled. Do I need to clear it out of the nipple cone before I fire it or is that just a result of normal loading? How can I avoid that happening in future loading?

 

[Grenadier1758]

Seeing the nipple filled with powder could well be a problem with the hole in the base of the nipple being too large. Upon firing the blowback from the discharge could recock the hammer to half and sometimes full cock. Replace the nipple to avoid this issue. You want the powder to be pushed back to the base of the nipple, but not into the cone.

 

[Cal S]

Seeing the nipple filled with powder could well be a problem...

That does not sound good. Acting on your advice, I just went to clean out the nipple and found that my observation was not entirely accurate. It turns out that about 5-6 individual grains of powder formed a layer across the nipple opening that led me to believe it was full, but in reality there were less than 10 in the entire nipple. Once I loosened the few that blocked my view into the nipple with a small finishing nail smaller than the diameter of the nipple (and exerting no downward pressure, so I'm certain I didn't just pack what was in there down further), with the use of a flashlight I could no longer see any more powder grains in the entire visible length. Think that few grains is still a problem or am I good to go more or less?

Thanks for the response!

 

[Zonie]

I do have another question, though, and it might be a noob one. I prepped it with powder and ball before going to the range tomorrow for its first firing. As I was pushing down the ball with the ramrod I heard a rushing of air from under the hammer. Of course, it was air displaced by the force of physics. However, when I half-cocked the hammer to take a look, I noticed that the nipple was jam-packed with the ffg black powder substitute I had used to charge it. If I had half-cocked the hammer while loading it, it would have started spilling out.

Is that a problem? I under-loaded it with ~65gr of powder substitute (as mentioned above the max powder charge is 89grs) so I'm certain it's not over-filled. Do I need to clear it out of the nipple cone before I fire it or is that just a result of normal loading? How can I avoid that happening in future loading?

If it is a percussion gun, having the powder blow back thru the fire channel hole to end up at the bottom of the nipple is a good thing.
Being right below the nipple and percussion cap, when the cap fires it will instantly set off the powder which will blow a massive flame back into the main powder charge. Just the thing you want for instant ignition.

The hole thru the nipple usually is a stepped hole with a large size at the top of the nipple and a much smaller hole down towards the bottom of the nipple.
The large hole at the top allows the large blast from the caps ignition powder to blow easily down into the nipple. The smaller hole down towards the bottom of the nipple allows the blast thru but its main job is to minimize the amount of powder gas that will try to escape thru the nipple when the main powder charge fires.

That small hole that is down inside the nipple should be about 1/32" in diameter. To see it, you will probably have to remove the nipple and look thru it.
If someone has drilled out the small hole to something like 1/16", you will need to buy a new nipple in order to safely fire the gun.