1st chain fire

[M. De Land]

I’ve never had a chain fire… until last Wednesday… had TWO !!
Both with tight fitting #10 caps.
A friend gave me an old EIG ‘51 Navy .36
With .375 balls some would shave a ring of lead, some a crescent some nothing.
After several uneventful loads of 15 gns 3f and cream O wheat I tried 20 gns no filler.
BOOM!! 3 chambers fired, top and 2 to the right. A cap drew blood from my trigger finger.
Next I used same load with lubed felteads over powder and let the friend who gave me the pistol shoot it. BOOM!! Same 3 chambers, same cut on his trigger finger.
The consensus of the club is that there is a LOT of fire/ heat at the front of the cylinder and that heat sets off the powder right behind the adjacent ball if not sealed tightly.
This gun needs a LOT of tweaking. There’s way too big a gap between cylinder and barrel. Someone has filed the wedge slot so wide it’s unsafe.
I’ll make a new wedge and set the gap to spec.
Has anyone ever seen a brass hand? I can’t imagine it will last long, I’ll be replacing that soon.
Like Grenadier, I’ll be using .380” balls from now on… probably grease over them too!
Not something I want to repeat!!
[/QUOTE
The hand /pawl might be beryllium copper , which is brass color . I have a nipple on a Navy Hawken Hunter made of the alloy and it is quite hard and tough.

 

[BadDaditood]

Good to know, thank you sir!

 

[Ray-Vigo]

True, the chain fire can come from the front of the chamber or the back, depending on wherever the weak seal is. The conventional wisdom of a tight cap, ball that shaves a full ring, and some kind of seal by wad, filler, or grease all helps. My experience is they certainly are possible, but not all that common. If you got repeated chain fires, then revisit the load and the condition of the revolver.

The brass hand will work, but will wear faster than a steel one. When they wear, a couple things can happen: the hand spring can break, or the gun can go out of time such that bolt will not lock into the cylinder stop. An unlocked or out-of-time revolver can spit lead when the ball jumps from the cylinder face into the forcing cone. This is also exacerbated if you have a large gap or excessive endshake.

I agree with you that going to a bigger ball, better seal, and a steel hand are all good ideas.

 

[No second place]

I’ve never had a chain fire… until last Wednesday… had TWO !!
Both with tight fitting #10 caps.
A friend gave me an old EIG ‘51 Navy .36
With .375 balls some would shave a ring of lead, some a crescent some nothing.
After several uneventful loads of 15 gns 3f and cream O wheat I tried 20 gns no filler.
BOOM!! 3 chambers fired, top and 2 to the right. A cap drew blood from my trigger finger.
Next I used same load with lubed felteads over powder and let the friend who gave me the pistol shoot it. BOOM!! Same 3 chambers, same cut on his trigger finger.
I always assumed caps were the culprit but now I’m convinced 90 percent of chain fires come at the chamber mouth.
The consensus of the club is that there was a LOT of fire/ heat at the front of the cylinder and there’s a big gap which allowed that heat to set off the powder right behind the adjacent ball if not sealed tightly, like a flintlock fires from the heat in the pan.
This gun needs a LOT of tweaking. There’s way too big a gap between cylinder and barrel. Someone has filed the wedge slot so wide it’s unsafe.
I’ll make a new wedge and set the gap to spec.
Has anyone ever seen a brass hand? I can’t imagine it will last long, I’ll be replacing that soon.
Like Grenadier, I’ll be using .380” balls from now on… probably grease over them too!
Not something I want to repeat!!

Over the years spent at the NMLRA championships walking the traders roe I have seen some very marginal Colt replicas. Guns made some decades ago with names of makers no longer. Many might look unused but poorly put together. Before 2000 and modern cnc. I was given a checklist of things to look for and measure and warned that many BP pistols and revolvers are best used for decoration only. Today I suggest to those new guys only buy guns made after 2000 is a good rule of thumb. I still carry my lights, mag. glasses, calipers and tools for checking out a new purchase when possible...c

 

[Rfp10000]

Interesting to me as both a percussion Sharps Carbine & Remington / Colt revolver shooter is that in discussing Sharps there is often talk about the convoluted fire path from the nipple to the powder and the problems with ignition of the charge.

The Sharps uses musket caps with plenty of compound and the holes at the bottom of the nipple and the vent that goes directly to the charge are big in comparison to the gap around a revolver nipple that might exist because of loose fitting cap not to mention that it is one or more chambers away from the one that just fired.

I know the chain fires happen in revolvers & caps can be loose or Ill fitting but it sure seems like a crazy journey for the fire to take. I’m not saying it isn’t true but in light of what I hear from the Sharps failure to ignite discussions it’s like two completely different worlds .

On one hand some people can’t get ignition with one musket cap firing after another & some revolver caps That contain a whole lot less compound can ignite a chamber quite a distance away after the fire travels over a random exposed path rather than in a defined, contained channel.

At any rate , I keep the fire path as clean as possible in the Sharps and don’t have ignition problems & I don’t accept loose fitting balls in a revolver and try to use the best fitting cap / nipple combination I have available. The peening of nipples seems pretty straightforward but I have some nipples that fit my larger caps and others that fit my other caps just right. The CCI 10s seem to be too small for any cones I have although I never really gave them an honest test.
Like I said , it’s an interesting topic for me and a somewhat rare problem I can take precautions to prevent particularly good cap/nipple combination & ball fit.

 

[Wildrangeringreen]

I had heard chain fires were always ‘cap’ related and not from poorly or not greasing the cylinder mouths … is that true???

Almost always. Otherwise cartridge revolvers would be having chain-fires (since those cartridges are often just lightly taper-crimped (the case mouth is squeezed against the bullet lightly to hold it in the case) which is a less perfect seal than actually swaging the bullet to perfectly fit the chamber). This assumes one loads the revolver with oversized projectiles (between .005" and .008" larger than your largest chamber mouth).

 

[Grenadier1758]

Has anyone used the nipples sized for #11 caps on their revolvers? I can find 11’s the 10’s not common around me.

Yes, I have replacement nipples that are sized for #11 caps. Do note that not all #11 (or for that matter #10 caps) have the same internal dimensions. There are differences in inside diameter and the skirt length. I find that the RWS 1075 caps are a tight fit on my #11 nipples and the #11 CCI are a better fit. The #10 Remmington caps have an indie diameter of almost the #11 diameter. The #10 Remmington caps have a longer skirt and mate to the nipple cone much better when using either a nipple sized for #10 or #11. As a disclaimer, I shoot smoothbored muskets far more than revolvers, so I have not needed to work to custom fit the nipples on my revolvers to the nipples.

My experiences with chain fires were due to a less than Black Powder salesclerk selling a youngster the wrong sized balls. They didn't have 0.380" or 0.375" balls, so they sold me buckshot that was close to the correct diameter. Some were quite undersized and would only grip a few places as they were loaded in the chamber. I thought it was normal for the chain fires to occur, so I merrily fired off many rounds. I could almost predict the chain fires. That's when I was perusing the Dixie Gun Works catalog that I decided that I should get a 0.375" round ball mold. Then the 0.375" balls were not a shear fit and they would move out of the chamber under the impulse of firing the round. It wasn't until I got the 0.380" mold that my chain fire problems went away. About that time, I got my first rifle and the revolvers went into the safe for about 30 years.

 

[sportster73hp]

I've never felt that pinched caps to get them to stay on the nipple are a good seal.

I have # 11 caps. One or more stores sell a nipple sized specifically for the #11 cap . If they work i only need one size cap and i have only ever seen two tins of #10 near me.

 

[Red Owl]

Whitworth: This forum ought to create a data base on chain fires as it is an important subject. So the chamber next to the left of the chamber aligned with the muzzle went off. The cap stayed in place but might have been a loose fit. The various "Navy" Colts vary a bit from brand to brand. I shoot 380 balls. I used to use Crisco to seal the ends of the chambers but I was told that lube burned up right away after a couple of shots. The next time I was at the range I loaded up as usual fired a couple of shots and then looked at the chamber ends, no Crisco left at all- I was completed amazed. Do you remember how many rounds you fired before the chain fire?
I have come to the conclusion that chain fires can happen at either end of the chamber, some times poorly fitted caps and other times from the chamber end. I'm wondering if the recoil forces the adjoining ball forward enough that the flash and heat explodes the powder below the ball but since the ball is already forward it harmlessly goes off to the side.

 

[SPQR70AD]

WOW !!!
You had “ THE DREADED CHAIN-FIRE ! And lived to tell the tale!
No lost or mangled hands, arms, or other body parts?
A surprising and disappointingly large number of people seem to think that is just not possible.

not only that people within a square mile are still alive

 

[Whughett]

Just illustrates the two types of cap revolver shooters, those that have had a chain fire and those that will…..

 

[Whughett]

Alway have found hearing about chain fires interesting. I understand they happen. I know fellow match shooters that say they have seen one or had one. Only from a lower class shooter. Never from a Master or High Master class shooter. Not blaming anyone. Just my experiences over matches and practice shot since 1995. Over 40,000 rounds of ball at a minimum of revolver BP shooting. The old champions who helped me start out warned me to always have a tight fitting ball with lube on top and to fit my nipples by peening them more open or turning them down to make a tight fit. The most likely problem will come from a loose cap falling off next to the chamber being fired. I have always eyeballed the caps before each shot just by habit and it`s part of my match checklist protocol. Good news is I`ve never heard of anyone being hurt or guns damaged by any chainfire stories told...ccc

Interesting stratification of “shooters”. Master almost master and wannabe master. Then there’s the rest of use who are only lower class shooters not worthy of any classification.

 

[flntlokr]

The guns are designed in such a way that chain fires will exit without damage to the gun. ( think the makers figured out pretty quickly that it wasn't a good idea to try and contain them) I have had a couple (only 1 or 2 cylinders), but have been close to several; never any harm done. IMHO, all were caused by ill-fitting or displaced caps, because some cylinders get missed, and the caps are firmly in place in those cases. If your ball is correctly sized, a thin ring of lead should be cut off when loaded. That leaves the ball with a pressure seal about 1/8" across, and I doubt that the relatively low-pressure flame from the front could get past it. I have no experience with paper cartridges, but would guess that if the fit wern't at least as tight as an ovversize ball, they might be more prone to leaking from the front.

 

[smoothshooter]

I never used paper cartridges much, but most of the time when I did I made them up like you would for a musket.
Make a paper tube, close one end and push the ball through the open end until it stops.
push a lubricated wad in and up against the ball.
Pour in the powder charge. Twist or fold the tail end closed.
To load the gun, tear open the tail end, pour powder in chamber.
Tear the tube the rest of the way open and place wad and ball in chamber.
Discard paper remnants.
Seat ball.
Cap nipples when ready.
My method is not quire as fast as using nitrated cartridges, but they are easier to make, and eliminate the chance of a glowing remnant of paper lurking in the chamber for a few seconds after firing.

 

[Rfp10000]

saw this …

 

[BadDaditood]

saw this …

Yup
That’s what happened
Thanx Rfp

 

[Rfp10000]

Blackie has an interesting one on YouTube also.

 

[BadDaditood]

Over the years spent at the NMLRA championships walking the traders roe I have seen some very marginal Colt replicas. Guns made some decades ago with names of makers no longer. Many might look unused but poorly put together. Before 2000 and modern cnc. I was given a checklist of things to look for and measure and warned that many BP pistols and revolvers are best used for decoration only. Today I suggest to those new guys only buy guns made after 2000 is a good rule of thumb. I still carry my lights, mag. glasses, calipers and tools for checking out a new purchase when possible...c

Excellent suggestions No2nd !
We decided my free EIG Navy is an early model, many decades before CNC.
From the looks of the wedge it’s chain fired before, which could be why it was free!
It may not be fixable but it’s another “challenge” ;-)

 

[1861colt]

Have fired hundreds of rounds from Colt and Remington reproduction pistols, never had a chain fire. It's not luck, it's paying attention to the loading process. Though somewhat time consuming, I always wipe the cylinder face, then lube the chambers, or use pre-lubed patches. It's not like I have an attacking enemy and must rush to load. Lately, have been using premade paper cartridges. Not too much chance of loose powder finding it's way onto the cylinder face. Plus, it cuts reloading time as much as 2/3s. And since I don't do that much shooting any more I purchase them already made. Pricey, perhaps but so much more convenient.

You hit the nail on the head of the whole problem of chainfires and no one gets it. No powder on cylinder. The problem is not caps not fitting. Powder management is the answer. We have been repeating the incorrect information for decades believing it but no testing to prove it. Chamfer the chamber mouth so ball is swaged, as sheering can make the ball irregular. Use a funnel to get powder past ball depth so no powder on cylinder face or walls to prevent powder trails. Grease on top won't stop a chainfire. It's the powder trails. Mohs scale hardness of lead is 1.5. Sulphur is 2.0. Potassium nitrate is 2.0. The powder is harder than the lead and can gouge a lead groove straight up and out of the chamber and now you have a fuze. After this you won't get chainfires as Dark Angel discovered. Now test caps. Don't put caps on cylinder but the one chamber you fire for each round and no chain fire will happen. Oh, by the way, someone said use a pencil eraser to push on tight caps. NO! There is proof the cap can go off as will be found in link. If they don't fit, change nipples or cap size. Pinching is OK. Now, all of this can be confirmed as true by going to geojohn.org.
l personally add that reaming chambers make uniformity and remove any obturation in manufacturing that may inhibit better accuracy.

 

[Dave Dworshak]

When all 6 goes off its one "heck" of a kick.