2 types of powder for the main charge

[Arrowstorm]

I haven't seen anything on this.

I bought some pyrodex select and found that it delays big time when compared to the regular stuff.. so I started putting a few grains of fffg before the main charge and it goes off every time... in my hawkens percussion rifle.

Now that I think about it.. I can do this with my flintlock because I noticed when I look thru the touchhole liner, if I can SEE the main charge of ffg, I know that baby's gonna fire.
Sometimes, and I have no idea why.. I can't actually see the main charge. And that's when I have a little bit of trouble. So... simply put.. I can probably pour a little bit of fffg down there.

The question is... Should I? :hmm:

 

[roundball]

I haven't seen anything on this.

I bought some pyrodex select and found that it delays big time when compared to the regular stuff.. so I started putting a few grains of fffg before the main charge and it goes off every time... in my hawkens percussion rifle.

Now that I think about it.. I can do this with my flintlock because I noticed when I look thru the touchhole liner, if I can SEE the main charge of ffg, I know that baby's gonna fire.
Sometimes, and I have no idea why.. I can't actually see the main charge. And that's when I have a little bit of trouble. So... simply put.. I can probably pour a little bit of fffg down there.

The question is... Should I? :hmm:

No problem at all using a layered load...I did that to use up some left over Pyrodex myself after switching to Flintlocks...ie: 20grns Goex 3F + 50, 60, 70grns, etc, of Pyrodex.
PS: It's possible that some of the time you're not seeing powder inside the vent is that it's "bridged" and hasn't fallen all the way down into the patent breech to the back side of the vent...I use a habit of pouring in the powder charge, lifting the rifle up by the barrel, and use my other hand to 'bump-bump' the side of the rifle in the lock area to ensure the powder settles all the way down into the breech.

 

[Arrowstorm]

when I ram the powder down there, I really RAM it down. I know what you're talking about with the "bridging" and all, and with the force with which I use to ram the powder, I can't imagine that happening at all. But.. I could be wrong, and i think that using the FFFG along with the FFg might really help.

 

[Herb]

Hodgdon's "Basic Muzzleloading Manual", free from them, says about using Triple Seven or Pyrodex in a flintlock: "To insure proper ignition in flintlock systems, 5 grains of FFFFG priming powder should be placed into the bore prior to loading the main charge of Triple Seven or Pyrodex." See also my post of 7/30/05 in Flintlock forum, ".50 Wigle FL test Goex, Swiss, Triple 7, Pyrodex RS", and in Percussion forum 8/20/05, "Re 777 and prb". In percussion rifles, you need a Hot Shot nipple rather than the standard one.

 

[big bore 75]

I tried it and it did wonders out of my bess carbine ,at the bench it was awsome , I used 10 grains of 3fg goex and 70 grains of pyrodex rs it was great haven't done it in a rifle but my try it after deer season. bb75

 

[roundball]

Hodgdon's "Basic Muzzleloading Manual", free from them, says about using Triple Seven or Pyrodex in a flintlock: "To insure proper ignition in flintlock systems, 5 grains of FFFFG priming powder should be placed into the bore prior to loading the main charge of Triple Seven or Pyrodex." See also my post of 7/30/05 in Flintlock forum, ".50 Wigle FL test Goex, Swiss, Triple 7, Pyrodex RS", and in Percussion forum 8/20/05, "Re 777 and prb". In percussion rifles, you need a Hot Shot nipple rather than the standard one.

I've seen that too, however, I take a slightly different approach, using 3F instead of 4F for the following reasons:
1) I don't have a small enough measure to measure that small of an amount of 4F;
2) I don't feel confident that a mere 5 grains of light fluffy 4F would all find it's way down into the breech because a lot of it might stick to lube or fouling film on the bore walls from the last shot;
3) Shooting range sessions in high humidity keeps the vent area borderline damp and I'd worry about 4F's greater susceptability to moisture than 3F;
4) When calulating total powder charge, to me it's easier to figure 20grs 3F at about 20grns worth of powder, than trying to figure smaller amounts of 4F;
5) I have a 20grn measure which works fine with 3F;
6) 3F is heavier and pours down bore with more authority so I'm confident most of it reaches down into the breech around the vent;
7) And it all has worked perfectly, so I'm good with it
:front:

 

[[email protected]]

Ned Roberts mentions doing exactly that in his book
" THE MUZZLELOADING CAPLOCK RIFLE" but he said the old timers would us a few grains of Smokeless powder( this was way back when ) to help the blackpowder start.....he said that he had no problems with the idea himself......great book! ya oughtta read it!
this got me ta thinkin cuz I thought that the first smokeless powder was called "CORDITE"....OH well,
we are supposed to talk bout BLACKPOWDER anyhoo..........

*** WV SCROUNGER ***

 

[brubincam]

i read years ago that a few grains of modern powder at the bottom then black powder,,,supposed to make it shoot cleaner,,,[DONT ANYONE TRY IT] this was just a followup statement,,,

 

[Zonie]

I have heard of using a "duplex" (smokeless and black powder) load in Caplock guns but never in a flintlock.

I'm not sure what is to be gained by putting any kind of smokeless powder under a black powder charge in a flintlock because all of it has a much higher flash point (temperature to ignite) than any black powder.

Anyway, I agree. Never use any amount of smokeless powder in a muzzleloader. The risk of injury to you, a bystander or your gun isn't worth it.

Putting a small amount of 2F, 3F or 4F under a load of Pyro or 777 probably would not hurt anything but IMO, consistancy is the name of the game for getting good groups and I'm not sure how you can assure consistancy when a small amount of BP is poured down the bore followed by the main load.

It seems like the small charge might land on one side of the bore one time and the other side of the bore the next. ::

 

[Herb]

I agree with you guys. I don't think five grains of 4F is likely to be a sure-fire booster. I used 10 grains of 2F for the reasons given above. Just filled my powder measure and then tapped it to settle about 10 grains and topped it off with the 2F. In a flintlock, you could use either 2F or 3F from a small separate horn (with Triple 7 or Pyrodex as the main charge), and then prime the pan with that same small horn. This worked just fine for me.

 

[Hawkeye]

A couple observations on duplex loading. First when Ned Roberts wrote about "modern" smokeless powder he was NOT refering to what we in the 21st century would call "modern" Please do not ever put any modern smokeless in our traditional guns. Second as to a duplex load of genuine black powder and pyrodex or whatever, Why? If you can get
black powder why not just use it?

 

[roundball]

Why? If you can get black powder why not just use it?

In my case, when I switched from caplocks to Flintlocks, I had several pounds of good Pyrodex RS left on my shelf...translated: mucho denerio on the shelf...it wouldn't work in a Flintlock by itself and I didn't want it to go to waste...so I used layered loads at the range.

To cut down on time actually spent at the range, I always premeasure my charges into 35mm film canisters before I leave the house...no trouble at all to load up 50 with 20grns Goex 3F, and 50 with 50-70grns Pyrodex RS...dump the Goex charge into the breech, followed by the main charge...layered loads work perfectly.

 

[Arrowstorm]

"translated: mucho denerio on the shelf...it wouldn't work in a Flintlock by itself and I didn't want it to go to waste..."



I use pyrodex RS in my flintlock..... it's all I can get here in southeast louisiana. That is why I am inquiring about duplex load. And I have been convinced that it's not a bad idea, so when I get my longrifle back from where I was staying during the storm, in Alabama, I will be using a few grains of FFFG along with my main charge. Thanks guys.

 

[Herb]

I personally use only black powder in my flintlocks. But many people want to know if the "replica" powders will work in them. So I test and find out. And yes, they can be made to work very well, for whatever reason one wants to use them.