2f or 3f in .54 Colerain?

[Flint1]

Hello everyone,
Just wanted opinions on what ya'll feel is best in a .54, FFg or FFFg. When I first started with muzzleloaders many years ago, I read the rule of thumb was FFFg up to .50, and FFg in .50 and above. Alot of the guys I shoot with use FFFg in larger calibers. What is your opinion on which is better?
Also, regarding the 13 yard rule Sam Fadala speaks of in The Black Powder Handbook, how heavy of a charge should one expect to use to accomplish this? I'm speaking of the sighting in tactic sighting to hit center of target at 13 yards, about 1/2 inch high at 25 yards, 1 inch high at 50 yards, center at 75 yards, and about 2 inches low at 100 yards. Apparently, this was how the old hunters sighted in. Sam Fadala makes it sound like one uses a very heavy charge to achieve this, but in a recent Muzzleloader article, Mark Baker talks like a lighter charge will accomplish this. Anyone have any experience with this?

 

[jackc]

Hello RW1:

Count me among the folks who adhere to the old rule of FFFg up to .50 and FFg for larger calibers. Actually, I get the best accuracy from my .50 with FFg so that's what I use in that caliber as well.

I am pretty protective of my guns and am pretty conservative when it comes to matters that could adversely affect pressure.

As to your question about Fadala's 13 yard rule, well, I'm familiar with it but haven't really tried it out. The area I hunt provides very few chances for a shot over 75 yards and the vast majority of the deer I've taken have been 25 to 50 yards out. My GPR .54 liked 100 to 110 grains of FFg depending on the patch.
:m2c: jack

 

[roundball]

Hello everyone,
Just wanted opinions on what ya'll feel is best in a .54, FFg or FFFg. When I first started with muzzleloaders many years ago, I read the rule of thumb was FFFg up to .50, and FFg in .50 and above. Alot of the guys I shoot with use FFFg in larger calibers. What is your opinion on which is better?
Also, regarding the 13 yard rule Sam Fadala speaks of in The Black Powder Handbook, how heavy of a charge should one expect to use to accomplish this? I'm speaking of the sighting in tactic sighting to hit center of target at 13 yards, about 1/2 inch high at 25 yards, 1 inch high at 50 yards, center at 75 yards, and about 2 inches low at 100 yards. Apparently, this was how the old hunters sighted in. Sam Fadala makes it sound like one uses a very heavy charge to achieve this, but in a recent Muzzleloader article, Mark Baker talks like a lighter charge will accomplish this. Anyone have any experience with this?

My powder experience is I use Goex 3F in .45/.50/.54cals, and 2F in .58/.62cals;

No experience with the 13yd sight-in...I zero everything at 50yds as most of my shots don't exceed that...and for the rare longer shot, I know the drop at 100yds is about 3".

 

The 13 yard rule works and it works very well! I have been using this method for going on 40 years on every firearm I own.

At 13 yards I can shoot a small and consistant group that allows me to properly adjust my sights working with the extremely small group.

At 13 yards you are close enough to see the shots without running back and forth to the target.

I can sight in even if I have limited space.

I can sight in inside my garage using my lazer bore sighter to trim sights on a new rifle and KNOW the gun is going to be on target with my first shot.

Usually I am dead on for windage and only have to adjust my sights or powder charge for slight elivation placement.

The same principle works at 25 yards for scoped high power rifles to put you dead on at 200 yards.

This knowledge has been standard in the cartridge world for many decades. The military does all initial sighting at 1000 inches using the elivated sight plane of the M-16 for a battle sight zero of 250 yards.

:front:

 

[silverfox]

RWI; I think the question to 2F or 3F has been pretty well answered although it's still a matter of what your gun likes. The 13 yard rule, I site in at 25yds, now the question to be answered is at 13yds what charge do you use? A target load or a hunting load or is this to close to make any difference. The 13 yd distance makes it easier to keep your site picture and does let you see your target without a spotting scope. Fox :thumbsup:

 

[Darkhorse]

I think the answer to the question about 2F or 3F is best answered by your rifle.
My .54 Colrain shows a definite preference to 3F. One or two shots with even a half charge of 2F and it leaves a ring of fouling just above the powder ring that the ball must be forced past. On the other hand 3F in this same rifle shoots very clean.
I have other rifles that really like 2F as far as accuracy. And when loading for them I use proven loads of 2F for targets and hunting.
But personally I have now come to prefer 3F in everything up to .54 caliber. :results:

 

[columbia]

I have a .54 Colerain 38" been shooting a 535 RB with a .015 patch with 110grs 3f for years for deer. Chronos at avg. of 1930 fps, 90 @1750
and 120 @ 1995fps. I settled on 110.
JB

 

[Tommy Bruce]

I've used 3f in my .62 smoothbore with both shot and round ball with no problems. The barrel was made by mold and gun shop and is modern steel. I did drop about 10 grains from my 2f load (85 to around 75 grains). The nice thing about 3f is that you can prime with it as well and that saves using a priming horn. I've never owned a rifle any larger than a .50 and used 3f in it as well.

 

[Zonie]

My little ballistics calculator says for a .530 dia ball fired at 1538 FPS, with the sights .70 above the center of the bore the impact on the target from the line of sight will be as follows:
10 yards 0.0 inches
15yards +0.3 inches
25 yards +0.7 inches
50 yards -0.6 inches
75 yards -1.45 inches
100 yards -6.0 inches

Lymans blackpowder loading book says 100 grains of Goex FFFg will give 1538 FPS in a 32 inch, 1:60 twist barrel like a GPR has.

 

[roundball]

Lymans blackpowder loading book says 100 grains of Goex FFFg will give 1538 FPS in a 32 inch, 1:60 twist barrel like a GPR has.

Zonie, wondering about this load data...reason I ask is that TC's load data chart for 120grns Goex 2F approaches 2000fps in the standard 1:48" barrel...100grns 3F should be a pretty close equivalent...??

 

[Zonie]

Don't know what to say.
This data is out of the Lyman Black Powder Handbook & Loading Manual 2nd Ed.

For 120 grains of powder in a 32 inch 1:60 precussion barrel shooting a .535 roundball patched with a .015 Ox-Yoke pre lubed patch it gives the following:

Goex FFg: 1803 fps
Goex FFFg: 1735 fps
Goex Clear Shot FFg: 1686 fps
Goex Clear Shot FFFg: 1709 fps
Elephant FFg: 1669 fps
Elephant FFFg: 1746 fps
Pyrodex RS: 1807 fps (Hodgdon Pyro .015 patch)
Pyrodex Select: 1842 fps (pyro .015 patch)
Pyrodex P: 1730 fps (Pyro .015 patch)

Maybe Thompson Centers shorter barrel with a faster twist shoots faster??
::

It might be that the Thompson Center data is based on shooting a .530 diameter ball which weighs 223.3 grains instead of the .535 diameter ball which weighs 229.7 grains.
The .530 ball will be a looser fit in the bore as well so assuming no leakage, it would likely accelerate faster. ::
Then again, it might be a advertising manager got ahold of the TC data and "took liberties" with it "just a little"??

 

[Darkhorse]

After deliberating on this exact question for a couple of years Zonie's theory that TC's advertising manager took "Liberties" is my conclusion also.
When I bought my Renegade back in 1976 the booklet I got had the 120 gr. 2F load as over 2,000 FPS, around 2400 if memory serves me (it probably doesn't) and this was for the 26 inch barrel.
Later on when reading the Lyman book the large difference in velocity just seemed to jump out at me.
I sure wish I could find that old TC manual.

 

[roundball]

Their load data chart uses a .530 ball (my Hornady .530's weigh 230grns, not 223)
Seemed like a lot of difference in velocity...I wanted to get set up and run my own loads / barrels through a chronograph this year but the year's half over and I still haven't done it yet

 

[roundball]

In all the couple dozen or so manuals I have from the past 15 years, 120grns Goex FFg = 1983fps with a .530/230grn[url] ball...in[/url] the adjacent colum, the muzzle energy is up over 2000 of course.

I also have one really old, thin, dark brownish TC manual which features the Hawken and the Patriot pistol on the front cover, with the Seneca on the back cover, and it has the same ballistics charts in it...there's no date on the little book anywhere...but it must be at least from the 80's, probably the late 70's.

Another possibility too is that their data is always based on using Natural Lube 1000 and that is some kind of slick, slippery lube...maybe it contributes to the velocity some, dunno

 

[biliff]

Only thing I can add is my 38" .54 Colerain barrel seems to like FFg. For a hunting load I've settled on 100gr. under a 20ga lubed felt wad and a .535 RB with a .018" patch. POI is 3" high at 50 yards, 1" high at 75 and pretty much dead on at 100.

 

[ktw]

...data is out of the Lyman Black Powder Handbook & Loading Manual 2nd Ed.

I've chronographed a few loads out of a 54 GPR percussion and I've been getting significantly higher velocities for a given powder charge than those shown in the Lyman 2nd Ed tables.

 

[Bob J]

...data is out of the Lyman Black Powder Handbook & Loading Manual 2nd Ed.

I've chronographed a few loads out of a 54 GPR percussion and I've been getting significantly higher velocities for a given powder charge than those shown in the Lyman 2nd Ed tables.

Whatcha gettin' with 100 gr 3f Goex?

 

[ktw]

...been getting significantly higher velocities for a given powder charge than those shown in the Lyman 2nd Ed tables.

Whatcha gettin' with 100 gr 3f Goex?

Haven't done any systematic chronograph work with the GPR. Simply ran off a few loads one day while working with some centerfire loads.

.530 Hornady RB/.015 Oxyoke/CCI#11, Lyman Great Plains (avg across three shots, each load. no between shot wiping)

55gr Pyrodex RS 1167 fps
70gr Goex FFFg 1491 fps
80gr Goex FFFg 1648 fps

 

[Darkhorse]

I'd really like to see some comprehensive chrono tests done. Including with and without a felt wad. After reading some of Roundball and others opinions on these I have bought some to use under my hunting loads. Anything that might give higher and more consistent velocitys with a given load is worth trying.

Roundball if I remember right my old TC manual was using Crisco as a patch lube. I have fired many a hundred roundball using Crisco and it is a very good lube. However i don't think you can shoot all day with 1/2 charges like you can with wonderlube.
Of course back then I was only using 2FG. Some tests run with 3FG and Crisco might prove interesting.

 

[roundball]

Roundball if I remember right my old TC manual was using Crisco as a patch lube.

I have fired many a hundred roundball using Crisco and it is a very good lube. However i don't think you can shoot all day with 1/2 charges like you can with wonderlube.

Of course back then I was only using 2FG.

My opinions on wonderwads are just my conclusions after using them at the range, no scientific testing as such.
But they're advertised that way, and when I use them with full power hunting loads, I can pick up my pillow ticking patches and reuse them they're so new looking...even still have lube in them...so there's obviously a significant increase in sealing when using wonderwads, which has to improve shot to shot consistency, therefore accuracy.

None of the TC manuals I have mention Crisco but I've seen posts where various folks have used Crisco. The oldest TC manuals I have, before Oxyoke invented Natural Lube 1000, lists TC#13 as TC's lube for round balls, and MaxiLube for their conicals.

Then in later manuals you see #13 and MaxiLube dropped and replaced with Natural Lube 1000 for everything.

I agree, 2F fouls more than 3F...and you're right, with a total NL1000 lube approach to everything, using moderate charges of Goex 3F with round balls, entire range trips can be fired without wiping between shots, no change in accuracy, etc...without even using wonderwads.

But even with 2F's extra fouling, and even on extremely dry/low humidity days I found I can still shoot without wiping, but I have to use patches with additional NL1000 on them to keep that extra fouling soft.
:front: