3f versus 2f when shooting conicals!

[F.G. Ford]

Having shot Parker Hale Volunteer rifle for many years can tell you, a nipple will wear out VERY QUICKLY with high pressure loads.
When that happens, the point of impact changes rapidly, and group size becomes more like a pattern than a group size.
If you need 3000 feet per second, get a 7mm Remington mag.
Fred

 

[rodwha]

Maybe you didn’t read his post thoroughly. He is using 80 grns of 3F after going up to 120 grns in a rifle designed to handle 150. He is asking about trying 2F instead which would further reduce the pressure and likely the velocity. He is not looking to produce but maybe half of that 3000 fps you mentioned. He is not looking to make a magnum out of his rifle. Quite the opposite actually.

 

[F.G. Ford]

Thank you Rodwha,
You are right about the original poster's request. :surrender:
I lose it when I hear ( mostly first hand ) when people want to make a magnum rifle ( what ever that is? )out of a black powder rifle. My point is/was that a nipple will not last long with heavy loads, resulting with eventual poor groups.
Have a great day!
Fred

 

[nkbj]

Having shot Parker Hale Volunteer rifle for many years can tell you, a nipple will wear out VERY QUICKLY with high pressure loads.
When that happens, the point of impact changes rapidly, and group size becomes more like a pattern than a group size.
If you need 3000 feet per second, get a 7mm Remington mag.
Fred

Got one of those primer adapters for a Renegade and no chance to go sit at the long range benches ever since. Lotsa work and no smoke makes for a pretty dull season.

 

[William O.]

While I did not test for pressure differences between 2f & 3f, I did have a Great Plains Hunter with it's fast twist barrel in 50 caliber that I tested both granulations of powder in. I found that no matter the weight of the conical, 3f was consistently more accurate than 2f. Accuracy was also improved when using a lubed wad over the powder charge no matter the type and weight of conical used as well. Using a 220 grain Lee REAL bullet pushed by 95 grains of 3f Goex with a Wonder Wad between them would produce cloverleaf groups at 75 yards however, recoil was unpleasant at best. I'm pretty confident that the bullet would have traversed the length of a bull elk, it just hurt to shoot it.

 

[longcruise]

pure speculation on my part, but the 3f could have a quicker and higher initial pressure peak and therefore bumping the bullet up more immediately.

One thing I learned loading BPC is that if the pressure is not adequate to bump the bullet up to seal the bore there is lots of blow by in both directions. I'm thinking the same thing could be happening in the breech of our ml guns.

Nipple erosion is a very real thing and it happens much faster than one would think. Learned that in my .50 caliber "conical period" many moons ago.

The LRML guys use platinum lined nipples to slow erosion. Not cheap but effective.

 

[Griz44Mag]

pure speculation on my part, but the 3f could have a quicker and higher initial pressure peak and therefore bumping the bullet up more immediately.

One thing I learned loading BPC is that if the pressure is not adequate to bump the bullet up to seal the bore there is lots of blow by in both directions. I'm thinking the same thing could be happening in the breech of our ml guns.

Nipple erosion is a very real thing and it happens much faster than one would think. Learned that in my .50 caliber "conical period" many moons ago.

The LRML guys use platinum lined nipples to slow erosion. Not cheap but effective.

Nipples are a lot cheaper than a pound of powder, so I just keep extra nipples in my range box. They are an expendable item, replace as needed.

 

[Billy Boy]

What little I have done with conicals, it seems that the replica powders do better because they seem to be a little slower burning.

 

[Stantheman86]

My Parker Hale 1861 needs 1.5f to be accurate. You just never know.

 

[Idaholewis]

Swiss is the only powder i use, i shoot both 2 and 3F, i have shot 70 Grains of 3F Accurately all the way out to 500 Yards in my .45 Cal Green Mountain LRH 1:30 Twist Barrel, in a TC Hawken Stock (Hotrod Hawken) I am using a Williams FP Hawken Tang Peep here with TK(Target Knobs) And Gib elevator Lock, my Front sight is a Lyman 17AHB with Lee Shaver’s fine Bead BPCR insert, Bullets are .444-400 Paper Patch. More recently i have started shooting more Swiss 2F, i seem to get all around better performance from the 2F, But Nothing Wrong with 3F!

View from my Gun to Target, 505 Yards with my Leica Rangefinder, that Target is BIG, like 4ft wide by 6 ft tall

View from my Target looking back at my Truck where my Shooting bench is

And my results, this 3 Shot Group measures 7 inches, Not quite MOA but I’ll take it. I can’t wait for springtime so i can get back out and do a BUNCH more of this stuff

 

[Idaholewis]

More recently Swiss 2F, Some of this stuff is on Video, this being 1 of them. Swiss 2F has been Stellar for me the last year or so, in my 45s, 50s, and 54s

3 Shots from my .50 Cal Green Mountain LRH Barrel in a TC Renegade Stock

My Rifle, this particular day i was testing some Paper Patch

 

[deermanok]

When that rifle first came out in the mid-late 90's, if I remember correctly. I bought one and experimented with different loads and found that 110 grains of 2f Goex and a 275 grain TC maxi-hunter worked great. The rifle came with fiber-optic sights which were kinda new back then, at least to me and I could hit the same spot on paper at 50 and 100 yards. I'm no great shot or anything but the gun was a shooter. Just last year, I gifted the rifle to a very close friend who wanted to get into the world of smoke poles.

 

[Howie1968]

Did your Hawken FP come with mounting hardware? I called Williams and they couldn't answer the question so I bought a Lyman 57sml I am interested in the lyman front sight as well..

 

[Howie1968]

the front sight you use IdahoRon?
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/7...ight-17ahb-404-height-3-8-dovetail-steel-blue

 

[Idaholewis]

the front sight you use IdahoRon?
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/7...ight-17ahb-404-height-3-8-dovetail-steel-blue

That is the Front Globe i use, I personally like the lower AHB better at .404 High, Ron uses the Taller AML at .494 high. The AHB allows me to keep my Peep Bridge a fair amount lower for my 100 Yard Zero, therefore giving me more elevation adjustment, I don’t believe I could have done the 500 Yard Shooting above with the taller AML Front Globe, I was at the very end of Elevation to get there. After dialing in at 500 yards i scribed a permanent mark on my Slider for that Yardage/Load

My Williams FP Hawken up close, i also prefer the larger 1” Target aperture, It helps me with peripheral distraction, you can also see the Knurled Gib Elevator Lock on the side here, Without this on the FP Hawken you would need a small flat head Screw Driver to loosen the slider for elevation adjustments.

I ordered this particular Williams FP Hawken sight directly from Williams, Since i Shoot Benchrest/Targets almost exclusively i went with the TK model (Target Knobs) and a Gib elevator lock so i can make Field adjustments. The Lyman 57SML is just as Good (I have 6-7 of them) And in more ways than not, it’s actually a better sight than the Williams FP Hawken, The Lyman has a built in Push button for Quick field adjustments, when pushed it bypasses the Elevation worm gear and you can simply slide the Elevation slider up/down and when you let go of the Button it locks in place. The Williams FP on the other hand with TK has no Bypass Around the Elevation Worm gear, you have to Turn the Knob continuously to Make adjustments and it is somewhat Slow, especially from 100 yards to say 300-400, A way around this would be to NOT get the TK model, Just the Standard FP with the Gib Lock, That way when you loosened the Gib Lock the Slider would be completely free. The Lyman 57SML also has an adjustable vernier Scale Mounted on the Side which is nice, The Williams Scale is permanently inscribed in the Side. They are both AWESOME sights, but I give the edge to The Lyman 57SML

 

[Idaholewis]

To the OP, Sorry about High jacking your thread with the above

Your original question of 3f vs 2F, They are both fine powders! Definitely give the 2F a Try, I have started using way more 2F than 3, It seems to give me better all around performance

 

[Stantheman86]

I'm about to try 2f in my new .45 Pedersoli Kentucky pistol , with both .433 round balls and .445 Minies....because 2f is all I have right now

I'm hoping....the pistol shoots well with 2f and .45 minies so I can roll little 30gr paper cartridges up for it

 

[Stantheman86]

Having shot Parker Hale Volunteer rifle for many years can tell you, a nipple will wear out VERY QUICKLY with high pressure loads.
When that happens, the point of impact changes rapidly, and group size becomes more like a pattern than a group size.
If you need 3000 feet per second, get a 7mm Remington mag.
Fred

Have you tried Ampco nipples with the Volunteer rifle? I ask because I just bought one

 

[Rat]

I believe, but may be wrong, that it takes more pressure to drive, let's say 270 grains, out of a .50, than a .58". Something having to do with physics and the base of the projectile multiplied by the angle of the dangle and all that. Or in other words, I think that 80 grains of powder will push a 270 grain bullet out of a .50 faster, than 80 grains will push a 270 grain ball out of a .58". Did that make any sense? But that would explain the lighter recoil from the .58", using the same powder charge, and same weight projectile, all else being the same, such as rifle weight, barrel length, etc. ?????