3f versus 2f when shooting conicals!

[Carl Fowler III]

Just recently bought a T/C Black Mountain Magnum in .50 caliber. Shooting a 270 grain unmentionable with 3f Goex, starting with 80 and increasing in 10 grain increments to 120. Best group was with 80 grains and the groups became larger as the powder increased!
This gun is rated to 150 grains and did not show any pressure signs at 120 grains of 3f! But after reading another post Zonie mentioned the use of 2f powder only due to higher pressures when shooting heavy conical bullets!
Although 80 grains of 3f gave me 3 shot Cloverleaf groups at 50 yards...I'm anxious to see what 2f will do out of this Black Beauty!
Anyone ever compare 3f to 2f, and if so, what were your results?

 

[coloradoclyde]

80 grains of 3fff is what I shoot out of my .50 hawken using a T/C maxiball...Shoots cloverleafs too....

I don't care what the gun is rated for, I'm not loading it with 150 grains of anything.

 

[azmntman]

:metoo:

Did that once in a friends in-line (yes I said it BUT it wasn't mine). I believe it kicked about like a 338 magnum, maybe a .416 mag? Nuff so I am NEVER doing it again. Hell, it's already modern, if you've given up tradition and accepted the insane recoil just get yer Remington out and zero the scope and go kill yer deer at 500 yds. :idunno:

 

[Zonie]

Although 80 grains of 3f gave me 3 shot Cloverleaf groups at 50 yards...I'm anxious to see what 2f will do out of this Black Beauty!
Anyone ever compare 3f to 2f, and if so, what were your results?

Although the results other people got when switching from 3Fg to 2Fg powder will be interesting, there's no telling what will happen when you try it.

It might improve the group size and it might make it worse.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if you will find the 2Fg powder charge needs to be increased a bit.

After all is said and done though, the only way to find out is to try it.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Anyone ever compare 3f to 2f, and if so, what were your results?

I missed that question....

I have found 3fff to out perform 2ff and with less powder making it economical.....Just been my experience, others will vary. You won't know until you try.


Note: I don't shoot "MAGNUM" loads.

 

[BrownBear]

A 270 grain conical isn't all that much heavier than the Hornady 240 grain Pennsylvania version, so about anything that could be said about one will apply to the other recoil-wise. You're a better man than me if you're able to tell them apart at the butt end of the gun.

In some rifles I've found a trade-off in moving from 3f to 2f behind conicals. It seems pretty clear that there's more "upset" of the base with the 3f, or said the other way, less upset with 2f. It gets right down to the fit of a particular conical in your particular bore. If the conical is considerably undersize, it's going to be loosey goosey going down and likely hard to get decent accuracy using 2f without a base wad to help seal the bore. And you can go quite a ways up the scale with 2f and still not get a good bore seal without the base wad. But with a good bore fit, about the only thing you'll have to do is adjust your charge around to find the best accuracy.

Like Zonie said, only way to find out is to try. Might not be any need to go very high up the powder scale at all using 2f with a base wad.

BTW- I didn't think recoil with 80 grains of 3f and a 240-grain Pennsylavania was all that bad. Even with TC's 560-grain Maxi Hunters from a 58 caliber, 80 grains doesn't even come close to a modern shotgun in recoil. But put 140 grains behind a 460-grain bullet in a strong modern 54 cal like I did a few times, and you've certainly moved off into the ionosphere of recoil. And if you scoped it like I did, you'll probably need stitches in your eyebrow like I did. I have a fair number of "African" cartridge guns for comparison, and they've never scoped me. But that 54 did no matter how I held it.... Three times in a row!!!! :surrender:

 

[nkbj]

The bullet weight and the geometry of the bullet base, the rifling geometry, bullet fit... it can all make a difference in powder charges.

 

[coloradoclyde]

I agree..... :thumbsup:

 

[BrownBear]

BTW-

I just thought of something to reassure you about recoil with those 270's.

A .570 round ball like most of us shoot from our 58 calibers weighs 280 grains. And an 80-grain powder charge with it is pretty much a pussycat to shoot. It doesn't seem to have any more back push than a .530 ball (225 grains) on top of an 80 grain charge in a 54 caliber, and that's a pretty standard, comfortable load for lots of shooters.

 

[Carl Fowler III]

Recoil has never been a problem for me, as long as I have good ear protection! Did all that shooting the other day in a tee shirt with no ill effects!
Just waiting for a mild and less humid day to try out 2f powder loads, I'll let you all know the results!

 

[Howie1968]

Ive got the same gun, however I went a little different route I shoot the 600 grain no excuse out of mine and I use pyrodex p I started out at 70 grains and worked up to 100 grains, witht hat big bullet and the 100 grains of pyro P it will rattle your cheek bone, im back down to 85 grains and recoil is manageable but cloverleafs at 75 yards. I bought some no excuse 495 and some 460s im still coming up with loads for them

 

[Howie1968]

I agree with your statement mr. brown bear 80 grains pyro RS and a .570 round ball is pretty tame. I bought some 600 grains maxis from TOW with that curved stock out of my Cabelas Hawken .58 im backing down to 70. I also use 80 grains in my .54 for some reason all my rifles like around 80 grains. my little white mountain carbine I use the great plains bullet 80 grains over the powder wad and has taken lots of hogs so far, same thing for my lyman deerstalker

 

[Sparkitoff]

I have experienced better accuracy and more velocity using 3Fg over 2fg with both Goex and Triple 7 powder. This is with an assortment of conicals in both .50 and .54 caliber. I experiment quite a bit and spend a lot of time and money to figure out what is the best load for a rifle so my experience may be different from others.

 

[stubshaft]

The majority of my shooting in rifles from .32 to .72 is with 3F. It burns cleaner and I tend to use less of it for most of my loads. There are a couple that I still use 2F in as it is the most accurate. YMMV

 

[Zonie]

Your 270 grain slug isn't much heavier than a roundball for your guns caliber so using 3Fg powder is probably OK.

When I mentioned that when shooting slugs folks should try to use 2Fg powder instead of 3Fg powder I was talking about real heavy slugs.

Something like a 350 grain .40 caliber or a 400 grain .45 slug.

These long, heavy slugs will produce some pretty incredible chamber pressures even when 2Fg powder is used with them. Like over 22,000 psi.

Needless to say, if a 2Fg powder under a heavy slug can produce large pressures like that, using a equal powder charge of faster burning 3Fg is going to produce pressures even higher.

Most of our muzzleloading guns don't have the high quality barrel steel that is made for pressures much higher that.

 

[excess650]

Are you hunting mammoth or just mastodon? :hmm:

:surrender:

 

[Mad Professor]

I got a 50 cal GM 1-28 barrel in stainless way back on a sale for $100 for a renegade.

Found a deal on 370gr buffalo bullets, cheaper than cheap RBs. I can't remember it was like $40 for 700? I'll have to look at the box again, I'm stocked for good

Have not tried 3F . 2F 70 80 or 90 grains printed small groups. At 90 gr it started to recoil like a mule. I settled on 80 grs and have 5 shot groups touching at 50 yds. I used a lubed wonderwad.

Would post a pic but left crapbucket when they got greedy. Any other place I can upload pics free?

 

[Christophero]

I've shot a thousand of the old style TC Maxi Hunters over 65 grains of fffg with excellent results on paper and deer. This was the best loading accuracy wise in the 50 caliber Renegade. Started out with 80 grains of ffg but the fouling was too much a bother. 65 gr fffg was the same velocity and I could load 20 in a row never needing to swab the bore. 75 grains of fffg gave hammer blow back, just like 90 grains of ffg did so stayed away from those loads.

 

[nkbj]

I got a 50 cal GM 1-28 barrel in stainless way back on a sale for $100 for a renegade.

Found a deal on 370gr buffalo bullets, cheaper than cheap RBs. I can't remember it was like $40 for 700? I'll have to look at the box again, I'm stocked for good

Have not tried 3F . 2F 70 80 or 90 grains printed small groups. At 90 gr it started to recoil like a mule. I settled on 80 grs and have 5 shot groups touching at 50 yds. I used a lubed wonderwad.

Would post a pic but left crapbucket when they got greedy. Any other place I can upload pics free?

I'm using imgur.com.

What's the length on your GM fifty?


This shorty is named Ren after the cartoon character. Came across a bunch of GM barrels years ago and kept a few. This one was just too much fun to let go. Have only shot it off hand at shorter distances as the sights are suited for. 450 grain cast swaged down to .499 have been OK.
:haha:

 

[Howie1968]

ive gotten to where I use 3F only for conicals, burns so much cleaner. now I use both pyrodex p and Olde Einsford 3F I let the gun dictate what it likes better. I tend to use heavy for caliber bullets as im hunting big hogs usually 25 yards or less. I will say this I always use a ox yoke wonder wad in between powder and bullet. I use mainly no excuses 600 grain 50 caliber and the 535 .54 I still shoot the Hornady great plains 425 out of my white mountain carbine. im really liking the Olde einsford 3F