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410 ga. for rabbits

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Bob Christian

32 Cal.
Joined
Oct 31, 2004
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I hunt rabbits with beagles here in dixie. I,m thinking about building a 410 ga. 36" barrel flint lock to hunt with. My shots are at a running rabbit most of the time in brush or heavy grass.

I was wondering if anyone has expierence with a 410 they would share with me or would it be a waste parts and time. Thanks
 
I have a 62/20 fowler. I,m thinking the 410 would be much easier to handle in brush,crossing ditches,fenches etc. Also I was thinking it might be a good gun to get my 9yr. old grandson started in MLS. Thanks.
 
I had a little .410 double that loaded from the muzzle,Nice little gun to tote around but I found you had to right on top of what you was shootin at for a good kill.A bit light in my opinion.
 
A .410 is an expert's gun, not a gun for young shooters. I know it has been commonly used as the first shotgun for kids for a hundred years, but your grandson will be better served with a .28 gauge gun( .550 caliber). It patterns much better, is just as light, recoils hardly at all, and is far more effective on small game. Leave the .410 to accomplished Skeet and Sporting Clays shooters.

If you ever have shot skeet with the idea of becoming competitive in that sport, you will find that the .410 is the last gauge with which shooters finally break 100 targets straight. Almost all Skeet shooters begin shooting 12 gauge guns, and then work their way down in gauges as they become more proficient, and are breaking more targets.

My best friend, growing up, got a single barrel .410 shotgun as his first gun when he was about 11 years old. It was bought used off a gunstore rack, and was a Winchester Model 37. It was a fine shooter. He was already an accomplished wing shooter, having spent hours shooting with BB guns, and then with a single shot .22, learning to shoot pennies thrown in the air with the .22 using bullets, not shot loads. When he got that .410, it was like a trip to heaven, as he almost never missed a flying bird at any angle. Its a lot easier to shoot a clay target or bird with even 1/2 oz. of shot, than with a single bullet.

However, having said that, Bud was, and still remains a great exception to the rule. Don't expect kids to be that good a shot with anything. Give the grandson a chance, by buying the 28 gauge gun. He will experience success sooner, and thank you for it. If he comes to NOT like that 28 gauge, you can keep it for yourself. A lot of older shooters find out way too late in life that they can kill birds flushed over dogs with the little 28 just as well as they have been doing for years using a 20 or 12 gauge gun, without the weight or recoil of the larger guns.
 
Like your friend my first gun was a single shot Stevens 410. After shooting it for about 4 yrs. I went to a 22. Maybe I,m being sentmental and not realistic. Thanks
 
The 410 issue always confuses me. I grew up shooting a Savage over under 22-410 combo gun with a rear sight. At 30 yards, you pulled about 5 inches or so in front of a rabbits nose to keep from tearing him up too bad with 3 inch number five shells. They would not let dad use it at the shooting match because it would take the entire center of the card out almost every shot. The next thing you hear is that they are a short range experts gun.
I would have no qualms at all on a 40 yard turkey with dad's if I could get 3 inch number five shells for it. I have never shot skeet at a range in my life, so breaking clays doesn't even register on the want meter, much less the need meter. That 410 is no handicap to a youngun out learning to hunt as far as I can see. Or at least if I was handicapped using it, I never noticed!
 
Opinions vary I guess, but the .410 was a great starting scatter gun for me. I grew up on a ranch, so the .410 was far from my first gun. I had already learned to shoot and hunt with my BB gun, 22 rimfires and my 22 Hornet, and had already killed my first deer with grandpa's 30-30. But when I was about 7-8 Dad gave me his 3-shot bolt Stevens Model 58B .410, which his Dad had given to him 'bout the same age. I used it to keep the cook pot filled with rabbits, pine hens, pheasant, quail, grouse, etc, and it worked great for that.

Guess kids just "made do" better way back then than they do now. :wink:

Maybe I'm being sentimental too. I have a single shot .410 I've used for years, but still have that 58B (retired). Have grandpa's 94 that I killed my first deer with too.
 
A 410 is dandy for rabbits. Our snowshoe hare is about the size of a jackrabbit, and a 410 swats em good. We raised beagles for years and hunted snowshoes from November through the end of April. Ranges aren't long due to brush (we never shoot beyond about 30 yards max), and hares are easy to kill. Basically if you get a single pellet in them they're going to stop, if not die outright.

I've used 12, 20,28 and 410, and if there's a difference at the ranges we hunt, the 410 wins because it's small shot charge is less distructive. My favorite over the years (33 years of bunny bapping here in Alaska as a matter of fact) has been a 410 double catridge gun. Most folks go out and track down one of their own after shooting mine. I'd jump on a ML 410 double in a New York minute.

The only hassle with a double is shooting at white rabbits on white snow while making white smoke. The second barrrle is pretty much a decoration till the rabbit moves out of the smoke cloud from the first shot.
 
We have to remember I,m talking about a smooth bore with no choke. I can remember my Dad saying don,t shoot at em too close you,ll tear em up. I don,t remember what choke my 410 had. I wish I had have had enough sense to keep it. Thanks
 
I bet there's a lot more similarity to shotshell than you realize, at least based on my many, many years of hunting with both ML 12 and 12 gauge shotshell guns. I used the ML quite successfully for everything up to and including ducks and geese. And it had no chokes.

The biggest thing you notice is the slower lock time and it's affect on swing and followthrough. That's easy to manage with very little practice- you are likely to have it figured out befor the first flight of a morning is over.

Pattern is dramatically affected by the combo of shot charge weight, velocity and wads. I'm confident that you can make adjustments to get patterns useful in a 410 ML past 20 yards. Again, with the prejudice for the conditions I hunt here, that's just dandy for rabbits, especially over dogs. It takes so few pellets to stop a rabbit (i.e., usually only 1) that a nice uniform pattern is likely to let you kill reliably beyond my arbitrary guess of 20 yards even if the pattern would be "too thin" for small game birds.
 
In skeet, the furthest target is 22 yard away from your barrel. The .410 will reach out that far, regardless of " choke " which never seems to make much difference in a .410's pattern performance beyond 5 yards, anyway. A ML .410 is going to have some different firing characteristics than those of a modern .410 shotgun shooting cartridges. The Flint ignition adds to the fun, but is not so slow in a well tuned lock as to be much of a factor.

I have NOT written that you can't kill game with a .410, of any kind, here. What I have said is that you do your child or grandchild a favor by buying him a 28 gauge gun instead of the .410. You can load the same small amount of shot in your 28 ga. that you have in the .410 if you worry about hitting a rabbit with too many pellets, with the 1/8 oz. of shot more commonly found in 28 ga. guns. The value of a 28 gauge is not the Increase in shot quantity or volume, but in the better formed patterns a 28 gives you, over the .410. Unless you are willing to spend some time at a patterning board, with both guns, this means nothing to you.

What I see written here are lots of prejudice in favor of someone's favorite FIRST gun-- I fully understand. I share those biases. But my first gun didn't fit me either, and, looking back, made hitting targets more work than should have been necessary. It was, however, many years before I found a skeet club, and people shooting the 28 gauge so I could see how the little gauge performed. Its easier to get 28 gauge components, and barrels in a flintlock than it is in most places to find modern 28 gauge shells, or guns. That is the only reason I mentioned it here. I havea cousin married to a man who loves to bird hunt, and got rid of all his large gauge shotguns to use only a Ruger Red Label O/U 28 gauge gun for all his bird hunting. He moved from Illinois to S. Carolina, and now hunts more quail than pheasants.
 
BrownBear would you have a suggestion for a load in the 410 smoothbore, also can a beagle track a rabbit in snow? Living in the south I have never hunted my dogs in snow. Just curious. Thanks.
 
As long as we're talkin first guns, I'll tell about my first shotgun.

When I was 9 years old back in 1945, a friend and I dreamed of having a .410 shotgun. We thought we could hunt anything with a .410. My dad finely agreed to buy me a shotgun when I was 10. He went to a hardware store (that's where you bought your guns in those days) The guy told him he shouldn't buy me a .410 because I wouldn't be able to hit anything with it. My dad listened to him and bought a 16ga that the guy recommended. It was a single shot gun very light and kicked the snot out of me. I got rid of that gun when I was 15, I don't remember ever killing anything with it, I hated that gun cuz it hurt to shoot it.

I've had a single shot .410 in my gun safe for a lot of years and it's as good a meat gun as I have.
 
I'm guessing that 1/2 ounces of #6 or #7.5 lead will be about right, both for killing and for patterns. Bigger (actually longer) shot charges can be used, but patterns tend to go to hell in a handbasket. We always get much better patterns from the 2.5" shells with their 1/2 ounce charges than we do from 3" shells with their 9/16 ounce charge. Small difference I know, but it makes a howling big dif in your pattern.

I'd also use very hard shot on top of two rather than one felt wads, in order to limit shot damage. I can't guess about a powder charge, but don't try to push the load too fast, which also blows patterns. We chronoed some loads in the 12 I used to have, and velocities between 1050 and 1100 fps were just about right. I bet the patterns would have been fine at lower velocities too, but I was concerned with loss of killing power as velocity dropped. Certainly with rabbits inside 20 yards you could probably get away with lots less.

I'd also try to use as thin an overshot card as you could get away with. That made a difference in the 12, and I bet it would make a bigger difference in the 410. I never liked any I could get for the 12 and ended up using a punch to cut my own from cereal boxes. I bet that would be a good place to start with your 410.

Our dogs had more fun in snow than any other time of year. They can track just fine, and they get covered with the stuff carousing through the low brush the rabbits like. My favorite memory of our old male was one day he stopped as he ran past me, then one foreleg in the air like a pointer he looked back at me with this big pile of snow balanced on his nose and a fine dust all over him looking like he'd been frozen and frosted in place. I'll always miss that fine old hound, but his hunting days ran their string after 14 years and his candle snuffed a year later. Gotta get another!
 
BB has answered your question. Dogs are smelling gases that come from the bacterial eating of dead skin cells that come off all living mammals, and birds. The dead skin cells are warmed by the body's heat, and the bacteria is already working on eating them when they fall off the rabbit, or whatever you are hunting. I have seen clouds of apparent " dust " from an escaping pheasant, in the air behind them as they beat their wings to climb, but most of it is not " DUST" from dirt, but simply an accumulation of deak skin cells, under the birds feathers. Its this sprinkling of dead skin along the flight path that allows dogs to follow the scent trail to the bird, after it is shot and falls from the air. Good bird dogs will circle down wind, out of training, and habit, to pick up the strongest scent trail to follow, and in a cross wind, that can be many feel downwind of the actual flight path taken by the bird.

With rabbits, their scent stays pretty close to the ground, even when they leap, and then its all over surrounding weeds, and brush, at " Nose " level for the dogs to catch on the run.

The only problems dogs have in scenting game in the snow is the cold DRY Air, makes it hard on the dog to keep his/her mucus membranes in his nose, and upper mouth wet, to flush the scent off, so he can breath in new scent to continue to follow. Its important for hunters to give their dogs a break, periodically, and give them luke-warm water to drink to replenish their fluid levels. The colder the weather, the more often dogs should be both watered and fed a little. ( As the temperature drops below zero, the air loses more and more of its moisture, to the point that unless you are exhaling moisture, you own lips can dry to the point of cracking. )
 
Just food for thought BB I have loaded 5/8 and 3/4 oz in 410 cartridge and got real good patterns using slow powders so maybe you can develope a like load in that there proposed front stuffer :thumbsup:
 
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