50 cal for elk?

[Wink]

First of all I recognize that for many of you the 54 PRB has been the proven Gold standard in many camps for Elk and big game hunting in North America. My question however is... How does a 50 cal with a heavy conical such a Hornady great plains compare with a 54 PRB in terms of ballistics and lethality? Would a person be able to hunt with a 50 cal using conicals for large game such as elk with confidence? The reason I ask is, I often see used 50 cal TC Hawkens and TC Renegades for sale in my price range but rarely do I see a 54 cal, which is kind of what I'm looking for.

 

[BrownBear]

I've been on hand for the kills of 7 elk with muzzleloaders on our place- 5 with 50 cal and three different conicals and 2 with 54 and PRB by the same group of four hunters over two years. Not sure whether it says more about the hunters and the ranges involved, but the 54 cal elk took one shot each at inside 50 yards, while ALL five of the 50 cal elks were between 75 and 115 yards and needed a followup shot. None of the first shots with the 50s were as well placed as with the 54.

Stir that in a pot and it gives you lots to think about, but I don't think it's an indictment of the 50. More likely it's about getting close and shooting well, no matter what you've got in your hands.

 

[Vaino]

Our camp .50 cal., 1:48 twist "loaner rifle" was my elk rifle for a number of years and it's still being used and has taken quite a few elk using a 410 gr. Buffalo Bullet ahead of 100 grs. ffg. Because of the trajectory of this heavy conical, the sight-in distance is limited to 60 yds but all the elk shot w/ this combination, were 1 shot kills w/ very short trailing distances. I switched to a .54 PRB because of the improved trajectory and have experienced no difference in killing elk between either load, although the distances were somewhat longer w/ the .54......Fred

 

[kevthebassman]

I would think that a heavy conical in a .50 would be good medicine for wapiti. Should have plenty of penetration to get the job done, just pick you shot well as with any muzzleloader.

 

[longcruise]

Have killed one deer and one elk with a .50 cal and 370 grain Maxi Balls. Neither went down as fast as my PRB kills. The elk however was a 130 yard shot so that one is not really comparable to the others killed with prb. The deer was about a 40 yard shot and it just walked away traveling about 100 yards before laying down.

Personally,I think it's more the shape of the maxi ball to blame than the fact that it was a conical. That pointy nose does not cut a very wide wound channel, IMO.

Friends of mine use the Buffaloe bullets with good results on deer and elk.

I'm one of those guys who goes with the .54 prb "gold standard" for elk but otoh, I suspect that a .50 prb would do just fine.

 

[tg]

We had a very similar thread some time back and there are a great many veteran Elk hunters who use the .50 prb, some tried the conicals but for a variety of reasons and went back to PRB, as always range and placement are the key issues, I would not hesitate to use a prb in .50 I know it works for Elk and I am prettymuch sold on traditional gear including sights and projectiles, others will likley advise differently, as many do choose the modern stuff.

 

[SimonKenton]

TG,

I seem to recall the most original Hawken rifles carried by free trappers were an average of .50 caliber. Those boys shot a LOT of elk and mule deer with the .50 so I have to say this goes to what I tell everyone:

Placement, placement, and PLACEMENT!!

That's all you need with reasonable velocity and mass.

-Ray

 

[tg]

"Placement, placement, and PLACEMENT!!"

You forgot "placement"..... it is only natural for the use of conicals to be there, TC made the Hawken basicaly as a conical gun, there has always been an uneasyness with many about the effective game taking properties of the ball, I have seen many come over from the modern bullet side to the ball once they really looked into it and tried the PRB, not everyone is interested in the traditional hunting thing and this will always be the case, but with this new form of communication I think more and more will drift toward the use of the ball and certainly newcommers will have a shot at some real time valid info about the powers of the ball and this should help.

 

[Little Wattsy]

In my experiance amolst EVERYTHING .50 cal is more redibly available and THAT has some merit...
I shoot both and quite frankly I prefer the .50 for the conical ( I have one barrel w/ a 1 in 28 twist) that shoots a 460 grain Hornady VERY accurately, fairly "flatly" out to 100 yards. Having looked at the recovered slugs I cant imagine ANY critter ignoreing that. :wink:

I still "feel" better about the .54 for PRB though.

 

[BrownBear]

Gotta watch the biggerisbetter bug, though. :surrender:

I now have three 54's and two 58's to my one 50. Heck, I've barely had the most recent 58 a couple of weeks, and I've already got the itch for something bigger. 62? 69? 72? 75? How bout one of each!

I'd still use the 50 and PRB for elk with as much confidence as I'd have in the 58, but I'm the one doing the stalking and shooting. I wouldn't be shooting unless I was inside 50 yards and had the perfect shot. Same as I'd be doing with a 75 cal for that matter, so we've come full circle.

The bottom line is to get within certain range and take a certain shot. That's the art of hunting, and you can't buy it. It's the whole difference between hunting and shooting.

 

[Idaho Ron]

with this new form of communication I think more and more will drift toward the use of the ball and certainly newcommers will have a shot at some real time valid info about the powers of the ball and this should help.

Real time info about the powers of the ball. By this you mean the power that can't be explained in any way other than maybe magic? If the PRB was designed perfectly why were bullets even designed? Ron

 

[paulvallandigham]

Ron. Bullets were designed for military use. They were not use on game for many years after the first minie balls appeared on battlefields. The need for accurate long range projectiles fored from rifled barrels arose from the open field fighting styles of the Napoleonic ages. ( The world learned a huge lesson from the Battle for New Orleans, when a rag-tag army of volunteers and backwoodsmen beat the best, most experienced Army in the known world on that day. While musekets armed many of Jackson's army, it was the cannon, and riflemen with their PRB that devastated the British forces approaching their fortifications in closed ranks.

The PRB was considered adequate for hunting all known game at the time.( This is also before Europeans began exploring sub-saharan Africa, and learned about truly large game that can bite back.)

 

[Little Wattsy]

Ron. Bullets were designed for military use. They were not use on game for many years after the first minie balls appeared on battlefields. The need for accurate long range projectiles fored from rifled barrels arose from the open field fighting styles of the Napoleonic ages. ( The world learned a huge lesson from the Battle for New Orleans, when a rag-tag army of volunteers and backwoodsmen beat the best, most experienced Army in the known world on that day. While musekets armed many of Jackson's army, it was the cannon, and riflemen with their PRB that devastated the British forces approaching their fortifications in closed ranks.

The PRB was considered adequate for hunting all known game at the time.( This is also before Europeans began exploring sub-saharan Africa, and learned about truly large game that can bite back.)

Just to chime in with Ron here (and really only adding :2 ) there wasa time when rocks and spears were considered adequate. I know archery hunters shooting long bows and recurves useing home made arrows that sniff at gun powder in ANY form and then use store-bought broad heads (go figure).
The point is what ever turns YOU on is cool!
Trying to sell a PRB as more leathal or even equal to a connical at 2 to 3 times its size is a little bit of a stretch though.
We used to slaughter pigs and cattle w/ a .22. It was adequate in proper circumstances; BUT I can NOT compare it to say, a .300 mag for hunting cow sized game.
So dead is dead and a PRB can most certianly make em daed. (I AM in fact breaking in a .54 Renegade that will be my PRB hunter.....Cuz I want to claim a kill that way, the same way I used to LOVE to archery hunt) But energy DOES matter and there IS a dircect coralation between bullet size and lethality probably MOST noted in more adverse situations like longer ranges, less then ideal quartering angles, bigger / heavier animals, etc. I do also ALWAYS believe in the litmus test....Ill take my chances with being hit by the moped VS the proverbial "Mac Truck" any day :grin:

Last point...Shot placement will ALWAYS trump caliber and bullet size! Unless you are hunting w/ a 20mm cannon... :hmm:

 

[BrownBear]

with this new form of communication I think more and more will drift toward the use of the ball and certainly newcommers will have a shot at some real time valid info about the powers of the ball and this should help.

Real time info about the powers of the ball. By this you mean the power that can't be explained in any way other than maybe magic? If the PRB was designed perfectly why were bullets even designed? Ron

I sure have formed the impression that the switch to conicals in civilian guns was a "western thing." There's an interesting overlap period between the demise of the beaver industry and the civil war. During that period many of the same folks that had been getting their feet wet to make a living with beaver had to move on and get their bellies dusty commercially shooting buffalo at longer distances than hunting the same species east of the Mississippi.

From the few accounts I've dredged up, once conicals were tried in ML's they gave up on round balls as fast as they could. Still shooting their trusty MLs because breech loaders wouldn't come into wide civilian use till after the Civil War. With the transition from ML's to breech loaders, there was no great movement to keep shooting RB's in their cartridge guns. In fact, the few ads you find for 45-70 ammo loaded with RB identifies them as "gallery" or plinking loads.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Yep? you can still make a fairly good plinking load with a .457" diameter RB pressed into the mouth of a .45-70 casing, over 9 grains of unique, or about 15 grains of black powder. You do need to use a filler with the BP load, but as long as the gun is tipped up to put the smokeless powder back against the primer, or you use tissue stuffed in the case to hold the powder at the base of the casing, they work just fine. Always use standard rifle, or even pistol primers, in that casing. No recoil, good accuracy and you can use your old warhorse to shoot squirrels.

 

[John Wasmuth]

One can put a .50 cal round ball clean thru a buffalo with 95 grains of FFg at 50 yards. Don't know why it'd be any different with an elk.