50 cal not hitting broadside of barn

[Casem4]

Hello everybody. I'm new to the Forum and is hoping that my accuracy issue might have some hope. I've tried many many things only to discover I can't seem to get any consistency. I have a Lyman Great Plains rifle new out of the box 4 years ago. I've taken it to the range as well as hunting. Last year I missed a deer under 25 yards. After taking it to the range when I first got it I was shooting about 6 in low and to the left and while hunting just adjusted the shot. This year when I took it out to sight it in I discovered that one out of 10 was even hitting the paper 50 yards. I drop down to 25 yards and was hitting just low and started 2 file my front sight as well as adjusted for windage. But when I go to the 50 yard it's just not hitting. I am using the real bullet 320 grain with 70 grains of fffg. I have shot round ball and wasn't happy with accuracy either. I will take any and all suggestions to try and resolve this I paid a lot of money for the rifle and then current state it's no good to me. Thanks in advance.

 

[F.G. Ford]

Hi, & good morning.
Well let's start to say that your Lyman Great Plains rifle is not suited well for bullets, it will do better with round ball.
You should be using .495 balls, or .490's.
Spit patching is ok, but I prefer a patch lightly coated with olive oil.
Best results are with "REAL" black powder, about 70 grains to start.
Also I suggest getting a paper by Dutch Shoultz, he is a member here. His guidance will have you shooting 10 X's in no time.
To break in a new barrel, some shooters suggest that you shoot about 200 shots to break in the barrel. I don't have time or money for that.
At your local auto supply store, get some valve grinding compound, with a tight ( I mean tight ) fit patch coat some valve grinding compound on the patch. With your cleaning rod make complete strokes from breech plug to the end of the barrel. About 100 strokes should do it.
Afterwards clean your barrel well, make sure there is no compound stuck in the nipple channel.
Flushing alcohol ( shine is good :wink: )one ounce in the barrel & two for you, for best results.
To shoot well, you must do the same, exactly for each shot.
Start at thirteen ( 13 ) paces from the muzzle.
Yes, I know it is close, but all balls should be in the same hole, if they are not you are doing something wrong. Check and see where you went wrong.
The close target saves you from walking back and forth.
If, you are on target, move it back to twenty five yards. When all is good, move it to one hundred yards.
Good luck & Merry Christmas!
Fred

 

[Casem4]

Morning Fred thanks for your response my first question is why do you say that the Lehman is not suited for bullets? It either has a twist of 1 and 48 of 1 and 32. When I did the test it seems as if I got different results but consistently the rate of twist fell in between both. What kind of patching would you suggest for the round ball? And since I'm really new I'm not exactly sure how to go about getting this paper. Thanks again and any other suggestions much appreciated

 

[rich pierce]

Sounds like it’s still shooting low. Get bigger paper if you’re off the paper till you see what is up. 6” low at 25 yards is almost unbelievable. You’ll have to file at least 1/8” off your front sight if that is the case.

 

[Casem4]

Good morning the 6in was actually at the 50-yard mark last year. yesterday when I took it to the range I wasn't hitting paper at 50 and when I took it to 25 it was about 3 in low I started to file got it up and consistent but when I moved it to the 50 nothing. I believe the bullet is becoming unstable somewhere between 25 and 50.

 

[nwtradegun]

twist is 1 in 60. round ball twist.

Originally designed and built by such famous makers as Hawken, Gemmer and Demick, Great Plains rifles were the best and most reliable designs and finest workmanship available. No other factory assembled rifle or kit offers the authentic style and design of Lyman's Great Plains Rifle. This classic muzzleloader offers such high quality features as a 32" barrel with 1 in 60" twist for patched ball and hunting loads, double set triggers, Hawken style percussion "snail" with clean out screw, separate ramrod entry thimble and nose cap, and reliable coil spring lock with correct lock plate. Available in .50 and .54 caliber flint or percussion. Factory assembled or kit form.

 

[Casem4]

Thanks for your response however the twist I am getting is much tighter and in the book that came with the gun it was saying the twist comes in variety. When I shot a round ball before with different patching I wasn't getting any more accurate then with the real bullet. The gun at a local shop prior to understanding how important the twist was. But when I tested it it fell between 8 and 12 in at a quarter turn. So multiplying it times 4 puts the twist somewhere between 32 and 48. Other thing I noticed was that the grooves seem to be very shallow which I thought was 4 a bullet. Either way I'm excited cuz I feel like I'm getting closer finally

 

[Dr5x]

Pilgriim,
Old Ford is probably right in suggesting you stick with patched round ball.
Elongated bullets either work or they don't work. There isn't much you can do to make adjustments that I know of
I would suggest a .495 ball and then we can begin by adjusting your patch material. We want as thick a patching as will provide a seal around the ball so none of the powder's power can bypass the projectile.

Old Ford's suggestion of making sure the barrel has no snags is followed by many wise people. I have never done it or found it necessary.

You have a very good rifle.
Oh, and give the barrel a quick wipe between shots or the buildup of residue will continue to throw you off.


He mentioned hitting the broad side of a barn, If that is your desire it can be easily achieved by firing from inside the barn.

I think there is a letter on my web site from a man who had a rifle he wouldn't gpve away or sell because he didn't hate anybody that much but when he made a few adjustments went on to win prizes with it.

Excuse typos my vision has gotten so bad I can;t see what I have typed.

Dutch Schoultzwww.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com

 

[Spikebuck]

I can't seem to get any consistency.

At 25 yards, what is your group size and with what load? If you have worked up a load for your rifle, and you are bench rested, you should be able to pretty easily shoot a ragged 5-shot hole.

If you indeed have a very tight group at 25 yards, do you have a similar group (maybe a 5-shot cloverleaf) at 50 yards? Again, bench rested.

Are you swabbing the bore between shots while you are working up a load? You should use a very lightly dampened cleaning patch, run it down the bore and let it sit for a few seconds, then remove it. I like to follow with a dry patch.

Be sure to change only ONE load component at a time when working up a load so you are sure you are seeing the effects of that ONE change. For instance, amount of powder, OR patch thickness, OR amount or type of lube, OR ball size, OR 2F vs 3F, etc. Never more than one of those at a time.

Until you get a very tight grouping, don't bother with filing your sights. Get a tight group, then move the group.

I am assuming that you thoroughly cleaned and lubed your gun between seasons so we can rule out rust damage to the bore while the gun sat for some time.

Dutch's web page. Well worth the price.
www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com

If you indeed have the fast twist barrel 1-32, you have the conical model. Try different conicals. I personally like a hollow base conical, like the Hornady Great Plains. I feel the hollow base allows better expansion of the bottom of the bullet to seal the bore. If the bore is not sealed, you won't get good groups. If you want to use a solid base conical, and don't get the groups you need, you can try a wad between the powder and bullet to seal the bore. Track of the Wolf sells all kinds of sizes, or you can punch out your own.

Net, it may take you a bunch of range sessions to work up the load YOUR gun likes. Don't get discouraged. Keep feeding us info as you need help.

Mike

 

[Grenadier1758]

Morning Fred thanks for your response my first question is why do you say that the Lehman is not suited for bullets? It either has a twist of 1 and 48 of 1 and 32. When I did the test it seems as if I got different results but consistently the rate of twist fell in between both. What kind of patching would you suggest for the round ball? And since I'm really new I'm not exactly sure how to go about getting this paper. Thanks again and any other suggestions much appreciated

You have told us a little bit of how you are shooting. Tell us how you are cleaning your rifle. Black powder (either real black powder and fouling from the substitute powders) is very corrosive and can ruin a barrel if left uncleaned. Warm water and a few drops of dish washing soap and a good cleaning jag clean the fouling from a bore. What does the bore look like now? Start developing accuracy from the clean bore condition.

There is a body of belief that rifles with slow twist and deep grooves don't stabilize the longer bullets such as the 50 caliber Lee Precision 320 grain REAL bullet. Admittedly it will take some load development, but the GPR can perform okay, but I would be looking at the 250 grain REAL.

What lubricant are you using to fill the grooves? You should be using some form of grease to lubricate the bore and minimize the leading of the barrel. Crisco or lard will do for starters but better lubricants are available such as mink oil from Track of the Wolf. Mink oil is also good for patch lubricant.

Your 50 caliber rifle should use either a 0.490 or 0.495" diameter ball. Patching should be from 0.018 to 0.022" inches thick. Patch lubricant runs the gamut from spit. Spit is good for target ranges but dries out while hunting. Mink oil is better for hunting.

So, get a big sheet of paper for targets, really clean your rifle. I know people who have the capability of 3" groups at 100 yards who have missed deer at 25 yards. Get confident shooting at targets, then go hunting.

 

[Casem4]

Good morning Dutch thanks for your response currently I don't have a mold to produce a. 495 I do have mold to produce a .490. Will this work? And I have taken hoppe 9 let it sit over night and scrubbed it. It is shining like the son under a light.

 

[Casem4]

Thanks for the response my Barrel is very shiny I take very good care of it cleaning usually right after shooting or within 20 minutes of drive time using hot water and dish soap. I then treat it using bore butter. The grooves however seem very shallow not deep. I realize it doesn't matter what I shoot if I don't know where the bullets going.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

I’ve seen bores w/ sooooooooo much bore butter in them, that accuracy suffered. Too much lube causes the patched ball to skip down the bore.

Switched to TOW mink oil (for hunting use) and 7:1 ratio water to Ballistol dried patches (for range use), ala the ”˜Dutch Schoultz’ method ... and accuracy was restored!

 

[MIOutdoorsman]

I appreciate your struggle, as I too purchased a brand new Lyman GPR this year and struggled big time to get it sited in. If you do a bit of reading, you'll discover that many guys abandon the factory sites on the GPR rifle--especially the rear adjustable. In my case, no matter what I did, I had to extend that rear site to the max possible, at which point the elevation screw was so loose that the site flopped around--or in one case fell off the rifle!

I tried shaving the front site down so that the rear site wouldn't have to elevate so high, but eventually, I just decided to install new sites, and my problem was immediately solved. Lyman makes a nice Great Plains Rifle, but the sites (in my opinion) are just flat out not matched to the gun.

Since I use this gun for hunting and paper-punching, I went with Lyman's fiber optic front and rear site. My 50 year old eyes appreciate the illumination they provide, and the adjustments for windage and elevation is really nice. The gun certainly doesn't look "period" anymore, but I'm getting 2-3" patterns right on the bull's eye at 100 yards.

For me, that's excellent shooting.

 

[Casem4]

At 25 it was half an inch Ergo why I filed. Almost dead center just low. But when I jumped over to 50 yards. Not hitting paper and I am using a cardboard box big enough for 2 targets. A paper plate on bottom and a taped cross at the top. I settled on 70 grains of fffg.. I might try a felt pad. I'm wondering if my bore is bigger then average and real bullet is engaging properly. It's tight but not really tight

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

You just said ”˜REAL’ bullet, are you trying those lead minieballs by Lee Precision? If so ... your barrel twist may not be fast enough to stabilize those looooong minies.

I’d say you need at least a 1-in-48” twist, or faster, to stabilize a minie-type slug and if you have a roundball twist barrel at 1-in-60” or so ... well, there you go ...

 

[rdstrain49]

In your part of the country, finding a club and or a mentor should be easy. Just do it.

 

[Casem4]

Yes referring to the real bullet from Lee. My twist is at least 1 + 48 measured it and it consistently is between 1 + 32 or 1 + 48

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

For best results, slug or ball, it has to be properly sized to the bore. Most find minies perform the best when 0.002” under the bore size.

FWIW my flint GPR shoots 3-4” groups of roundball at 100-yards and I’ve not even tried any further load development.

My load is 0.490” ball, 75-grns 3Fg, TOW mink oil lube on 0.016” thick red-striped pillow ticking (washed twice) patch from Joanne’s Fabrics.

 

[VJM]

Do you have the GPR "Hunter" which has a 1 in 32 twist? Or the standard GPR slow twist 1 in 60 barrel?