54 Caliber Rate of twist

[Davemuzz]

I know that for shooting heavier weight bullets in modern rifles (centerfire) a faster rate of twist is better than a slow rate. But I don't know if that's true with M\L's. (I'm guessing velocity has something to do with that)

So, for a 54 caliber, would the 1-56 twist rate be preferred over a 1-70 twist rate?

Barrel length will be around 36"-38" or so.

Thanks for your opinions. (And I know it's your opinion)

 

[George]

The proper twist rate is not concerned with the weight of the bullet but with the length of it, So, conicals need a faster twist rate than round ball. You didn't say which you want to shoot.

I only shoot ball in my .54, so its twist of 1:70 is just right.

Spence

 

[MSW]

You might want to contact Bobby Hoyt and ask him.

2379 Mt Hope Dr.
Fairfield PA 17320

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Dave,
I have a swamped, 38" .54 Colerain barrel with radius grooved rifling and a 1:56 twist rate and she's very accurate out to 100 yards with loads from 70-90 grains.

LD

 

[Davemuzz]

Thank you all for your responses.

I did a "google" with this question......and guess where I landed?
Right back here!!

So, after reading that post, it would appear that a ROT between 1-56 to 1-70 when shooting a PRB doesn't make a significant difference in accuracy.....as long as the powder charge is right.

So, I have my answer. Again, Thanks!

Dave

 

[Rifleman1776]

ROT between 1-56 to 1-70 when shooting a PRB doesn't make a significant difference in accuracy.....as long as the powder charge is right.

Correct. But remember the slower the twist the heavier the charge needed for optimum accuracy. That of course means more expensive shooting and more recoil. The 1:56" twist will do the job with pleasant moderate charges.

 

[Elkeater]

But remember the slower the twist the heavier the charge needed for optimum accuracy.

And the slower twist, heavier charge = more velocity.

 

[Davemuzz]

This rifle will be used (likely) more for hunting than anything else. I don't know what the increase in velocity of 100gr vs say 60gr of powder charge is, but for deer, I'm thinking more = better, accuracy being equal.

 

[Rifleman1776]

This rifle will be used (likely) more for hunting than anything else. I don't know what the increase in velocity of 100gr vs say 60gr of powder charge is, but for deer, I'm thinking more = better, accuracy being equal.

Threads identical to this one pop up regularly. Oh, well.
Anyhow, here is my story on how I arrived at my hunting charges. The very first deer I ever took with my .45 cal. flint longrifle was with a 95 gr. charge and prb. Deer was sure ded. But, I was not happy with the large amount of meat that was ruined. I dropped the charge to 65 gr. and have stayed there for decades. The deer are just as ded and there is almost no meat ruined by hydraulic shock.

 

[Zonie]

I've shown this before but it might interest you.

The graph is for a patched roundball shot over GOEX 3Fg powder.

Notice that although the initial muzzle velocity is impressive (first dot on the left), by the time the ball reaches a distance of 120 yards (dot on the right), there is very little difference in the balls velocity or energy.

Now, lets get back to the rate of twist question.

 

[jerrywh]

There is something else to consider. That is drop.
You cannot load a fast twist too heavy without stripping the patch and loosing your accuracy. That is the reason some people prefer a 1:72 twist. Faster velocity gets to the target faster and has less drop for that reason. I prefer to shoot a lighter load and compensate with a two bladed sight.
I find that I get better accuracy that way. High velocity doesn't gain you much with a muzzle loader.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I agree.
I developed a load of 70 grains of 3Fg in my .50 caliber Frontier rifle from Pedersoli. I found that it was very accurate and also found that was the recommended load from the maker.

At the same time there were these fellows who shot black powder at the range and they were launching 350+ grain conicals with 120 grains of 2Fg. Some used traditional rifles, and some not traditional rifles. I noticed that none of them could raise their arm over their head due to their shoulder bruises from shooting, AND one fellow had developed an obvious flinch. When I asked them why such stout loads, they explained you couldn't kill deer "with less"..., but when I asked if one could kill deer with a .45-70 cartridge why did they feel they needed 120 gains..., I got some blank stares.

I wanted a more "historic" rifle, so I searched for a year, and found a used, very plain rifle from Cabin Creek, a PA Mountain Rifle. I kept the same powder charger from the previous rifle, and found the new rifle shot very well with that load ..., and I could shoot all day without a massive bruise on my shoulder too. :wink: :haha:

I also found it was plenty for taking deer out to 100 yards. It shoots a bit high at 50 yards, and an inch or so low at 100, and the variation isn't noticed by the deer.

LD

 

[Davemuzz]

This from: http://www.namlhunt.com/traditionalmldata2.html

Dixie Gun Works .54 Caliber "Harper's Ferry" Flintlock Rifle...

Picture
Barrel Length: 35 1/2"
Land-to-Land: .540"
Groove-to-Groove: .552"
Rate of Twist: 1 turn-in-66"
Ignition: Flintlock
Ball Diameter: .530" (Cast)
Ball Weight: 224 grains
Patch: .015" Lubed Cotton



FFg Black Powder - GOEX
Load Muzzle Velocity/Muzzle Energy.. 50-Yard Velocity/Energy.. 100-Yard Velocity/Energy
60 gr. 1,314 f.p.s./858 f.p.e. 1,017 f.p.s./515 f.p.e. 838 f.p.s./347 f.p.e.
70 gr. 1,421 f.p.s./1,001 f.p.e. 1,109 f.p.s./610 f.p.e. 943 f.p.s./442 f.p.e.
80 gr. 1,519 f.p.s./1,147 f.p.e. 1,143 f.p.s./649 f.p.e. 977 f.p.s./473 f.p.e.
90 gr. 1,586 f.p.s./1,252 f.p.e. 1,188 f.p.s./701 f.p.e. 984 f.p.s./491 f.p.e.
100 gr. 1,648 f.p.s./1,351 f.p.e. 1,239 f.p.s./760 f.p.e. 997 f.p.s./496 f.p.e.

The Model 1803 Harper's Ferry was the very first official U.S. Military issue rifle, and was the official rifle of the Lewis & Clark Expedition. North American Muzzleloader Hunting has read where the "official" service charge for this rifle was the light 60-grain charge of FFg black power detailed above. At the muzzle, the load barely generates enough game-taking energy to insure a clean kill on whitetails, pronghorn, mule deer and other similar sized game. At just 50 yards, the retained energy is nearly 300 foot-pounds below what today's hunters acknowledge as the required minimum energy level for such game. If this is the load used by the "Corps of Discovery", it is easy to better understand how the expedition nearly starved at many points along their journey...and epecially why they had so much trouble putting down grizzlies. - Toby Bridges, North America Muzzleloader Hunting

I'm not disagreeing that the 60gr load is considered "to light" for whitetail deer. OTOH from my 50 cal flintlock my load is 100gr. FF. I don't find this load "excessive" but I do know it takes whitetail with regularity.

 

[Rifleman1776]

stripping the patch

May I politely say "balderdash"? :slap:
Stripping is a myth, it just doesn't happen. :shake: A 1:48" twist with heavy charge will work just as fine. And, with the faster twist you can use light charges for all the shooting you do that is not hunting.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

First B-P rifle I ever had was a Lyman Great Plains in .54 . was an early one with 1 ~48 " twist. Yes, definitely 1 in 48".
Still, with a good patch it was as accurate as can be with 60 grs for target, and 120 grs for hunting. I maybe didn't need 120 grs, but used a double (60 gr) measure.
When I built one for my son, I got a coleraine barrel C & swamped . Think it was 1 in 66" and it shot fine as well.
All above with a ball. no conicals.

 

[Davemuzz]

Yes. I hear you. My "shyness" towards the faster ROT is because my first flinter was a T\C with 1-48 twist. Best groupings were with 60gr FF. But yet, outta 4 shots one would still be a flyer. It was just a shallow grove barrel that I believe was simply not a good one.

I replaced with a GM 1-70 and it shoots wonderful groups at 100 yds shooting a Hornady Pa Conical.

FWIW

 

[jerrywh]

It doesn't do any good to have an excessive load in a muzzle loading firearm. A bullet fired from a muzzle loader doesn't explode like a modern gun bullet does. A black powder bullet only makes a hole in the object. 70grains of powder behind a 50 cal. RB will go clear through an ELK it it doesn't hit too many bones.
PS. Anybody who doesn't think an excessive load will strip the patch or blow the patch just plain doesn't know what he is talking about. No use arguing about it.

 

[Davemuzz]

Thank you all for your input. I'm the kind of person that reads as much as I can, then I ask the experts, then all of that "stuff" roll's around in my head for awhile, then I make a decision. As the collective "we" where I use to work would say......"It's a decision.....it may be the wrong decision......but darn it, it's a decision!"

I'm going with the GM 54 caliber 1-70 twist barrel. :thumbsup:

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The Model 1803 Harper's Ferry was the very first official U.S. Military issue rifle, and was the official rifle of the Lewis & Clark Expedition. North American Muzzleloader Hunting has read where the "official" service charge for this rifle was the light 60-grain charge of FFg black power detailed above. At the muzzle, the load barely generates enough game-taking energy to insure a clean kill on whitetails, pronghorn, mule deer and other similar sized game. At just 50 yards, the retained energy is nearly 300 foot-pounds below what today's hunters acknowledge as the required minimum energy level for such game. If this is the load used by the "Corps of Discovery", it is easy to better understand how the expedition nearly starved at many points along their journey...and epecially why they had so much trouble putting down grizzlies. - Toby Bridges, North America Muzzleloader Hunting

The 1792 Contract rifle was the "first officially issued, Army rifle". On January 4, 1792, the Secretary of War, Henry Knox, authorized General Hand who was located in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, to contract with local Pennsylvania rifle builders to quickly make 500 to 1000 rifles. The general wrote back that he was preparing a standard rifle to work from, with a 44.5 inch barrel in .47 caliber. He sent the Secretary of War an example of the rifle.

On February 4th, 1792, Knox sent further specifications, and had the barrels set at 42 inches, and the caliber changed to .49, as well as specifying that the lock needed a fly and that well seasoned maple must be used for the stock.

Between April 1792 and December 1792, 1,476 rifles were delivered, and by November 1794 2,000 more had been delivered bringing the total to 3,476. The majority of these rifles were shipped to the United States Army, Schuykill Arsenal at Philadelphia, and issued to Army and militia troops.

Perhaps..., the author meant "the first government arsenal built rifles, issued to the army" ? That could be very true since in 1807 another round of "contract" rifles were ordered and purchased.

LD

 

[Stophel]

Toby Bridges became rather infamous for his anti-roundball tirade a few years ago. I wouldn't put much stock in anything he says.

Also note in the velocity chart that going from 60 grains to 100 (getting close to doubling the powder charge) all you get is 300 some odd FPS velocity gain.