54 or 58?

[parrett]

Okay, let the discussion begin. What are the advantages or disadvantages of one caliber over the other for hunting? We're talking PRB's here and not conicals and game larger than deer, such as elk, moose, etc. I'm wondering about speed and trajectory vs. foot pounds.

Dan

 

[BrownBear]

I'm not sure whether this is a discussion or a rerun. The topic was exercized for multiple pages within the last month. No winners, no losers, no new ideas, and really not all that much fun.

Not to put a damper on your idea, but I think you'll find many folks were pretty well wore out by the time that one died its natural death.

My reaction to the question? I want both, and I'm not going to change my mind till I get the 58 to go with the 32, 36, 50 and 54 I aleady have. Then I'm going to want a 62 to go with my 32, 36, 50, 54 and 58. And then I'm going to want a 72, a 75, a 40 and a 45 to go with them.

 

[roundball]

Okay, let the discussion begin. What are the advantages or disadvantages of one caliber over the other for hunting? We're talking PRB's here and not conicals and game larger than deer, such as elk, moose, etc. I'm wondering about speed and trajectory vs. foot pounds.

Dan

Going after something big like moose I'd grab my .58cal off the rack every time...wouldn't even hesitate...279grn ball carries energy to longer distances, etc.

When I use mine for whitetail, I just use a mid range charge of 100grns Goex 2F...for moose I'd max it out

 

[gmww]

I would agree with Roundball. If I were going after moose then that would mean I just spent a whole lot of money to even get the opportunity to hunt one. That being said everything Roundball wrote applies. Will a .54 kill a moose. Most likely. The .58 would give me a little more umph on impact with everything else being equal. Just my humble opinion. By the way moose is very good eating! Got me one a couple of years ago in Canada. Modern rifle though. :v

 

[Runner]

If the stories are true, the men that lived by these guns used double ball loads for bear a lot of the time if they knew they were after a bear. Don't know about moose. I would not have any problem stepping out on the beach and putting a "bear" load thru the vitals of a big brownie with my 50. A 54 is better, but dead is dead. A 58 is even better.
Traditional 50 with a double ball load. Fire the rifle, heel the gun. Draw the 50 Kentucky and watch to see if you need it. If you are charged, the Kentucky at point blank range shoved against the hide will blow a critter up like a compressor air hose. Smoke cloud on the inside! Don't waste it at 10 feet. The chances it will stop an enraged bear going into shock from the first shot is pretty small unless it is against the hide. Iffen he eats ya with three 50 balls and a smoke cloud in him, you just get eaten! He is going to have to chew fast tho!
At muzzleloader bear range, I am pretty sure the bear load would settle a moose pretty quick also!
If you are going to live it, live it all the way!

 

[roundball]

If you are charged, the Kentucky at point blank range shoved against the hide will blow a critter up like a compressor air hose. Smoke cloud on the inside! Don't waste it at 10 feet.

I don't believe there are any people on the planet who could stand their ground for a several hundred pound enraged bear in full charge to get INSIDE arms reach...so they could put a ML pistol pop-gun against the hide of this 30mph moving bear and pull the trigger.

 

[Headhunter]

I couldn't begin to elaborate on foot pounds and such. What I do know for sure is the 58 is an excellent and efficient Killer.

HH

 

[Runner]

Bear, man with a knife, or just about any other attacker Roundball is much better in front of you and thinking than giving them your back. Yep, you know one person that would stand his ground whether it was a big bear, a man with a knife, or an overly friendly attack dog. Course, fighting and timing such things has been pretty much a lifetime obsession with me. Almost as bad as hunting. I am disabled because I took too many blows to the head when I was heavily involved years back and am now paying the price for all that rough stuff when I was young.
The reason I know it works is I kicked a buck over that was hooking at me and hammered him thru the ribcage with a 250 REAL out of a third model Dragoon. The range was very short and the effect is pretty much immediate and readily apparent. If you want specifics we can do that in a private message conversation. Believe me on this one.
Not facing a charging hurt bear and taking your best shot at stopping him sounds crazy to me! Standing my ground sounds normal!

 

[roundball]

Sounds like you must be a real man's man !!
:hatsoff:

 

[Blizzard of '93]

some experiments I've done w/double PRB load in my .50 over 70 grs. 3F have yeilded dramatic damage to stacked wet cardboard. yes it was common to the ol' timers to use double ball loads against bear, eastern cougar etc. that could tear up their dogs (or the hunters for that matter). being from east of the Miss. I figure a .50 is good for anything here. out west (elk, BIG bears) give me a BIG bore

 

[Runner]

A librarian is as much man as a warrior alone in the woods 200 years ago. They are two very different men tho. Yes, I am one of the fighting, don't back down, tell the truth even when I am wrong, hard headed country boys. There are a whole lot of us around here. When the guy dropped the 12 guage on me and started talking about how much he would like to kill me, I squared up and held my arms out to the side to give him a clear shot if he was going to shoot. If you don't understand why a man would do that, I can't explain it to you. I was raised that way!

 

[MIR]

Dont own a .58, but I do own a Don Bruton made .54 flinter.
Taken several doe with it here in SC. Never had to have a follow up shot, one shot-one kill.
All but one dropped right where they were. They kicked around a little but that was about it.
A .54 is plenty good. never been moose/elk hunting though, but I hope to one day. I beleive my .54 will take em....no sweat...

But I still would like to have a .58" dont tell my wife though...never can have enough smoke poles lying around :grin:

 

[Runner]

I have a 58 smoothbore barrel made from a reject modern barrel blank. It will likely end up on an air gun tho!

 

[Sharp Shooter]

They are both great calibers. I live in Colorado and hunt large game like elk so I like the 58cal. I like the 54cal also. If I had to only keep one of my barrels I could not decide between the 58cal and 54cal. Both really great. I probably like the 58cal a little better.

 

[tg]

"I don't believe there are any people on the planet who could stand their ground for a several hundred pound enraged bear in full charge to get INSIDE arms reach..."

just dig out your PC ball discharger and throw the goat at the bear this should keep him busy for a while so you can get away or find a tree...

as for the original question, if I saw Elk or Moose in the future and had to choose between the two it would be the .58, if all I had was a .54 I would use it and try to get closer.

 

[juancho]

I'm gonna tell you what happened to me on my first shootgun controled deer hunt here in Ontario.
I was with a very good friend of mine that took me to that specific place he knew well.Half an hour into the hunt him and his dad managed to spook two deers towards me, hidden 100 yds or so downwind.He yelled THEY"R GOING YOUR...BANG BANG!!... way.Yeap it took both barrells and it went down on the spot.
Safe hunter as I am, opened the gun and started walking to see my first deer! As i was no more than 20 feet away it started to stand up again!
My instict took over.Tosed the gun to the side and run like hell to get him before is gone, drawing my 10 in blade knife, and tackle him to the ground as I swang the knife to his throat.
I thougt my heart was going to explode.But the biggest surprise was how easily the knife went in and nearly decapiteted the animal.
My friend witness all of it, and still today,when he intruduce me to other guys he tells the story.
I think he could not say a word for a good 20 min or so, as he was laughing so hard.
When we got back to his dad place we tried to hang it , but the head came off.He laughed for a good 10 min more.
When You find yourself in a situation like that, You'll find out how you reacted,after the fact.There is no planning or ideas, just instinct.
No one "plans" to get "personal" with a bear or such, but sometimes it just hapens.Your more likly to hear fantastic stories "adorned" by :bull: , but at the end ,were mostly told by the luky survivor :shocked2:

 

[Stumpkiller]

Okay, let the discussion begin. What are the advantages or disadvantages of one caliber over the other for hunting? We're talking PRB's here and not conicals and game larger than deer, such as elk, moose, etc. I'm wondering about speed and trajectory vs. foot pounds.

Dan

Wow! He asked about speed and trajectory and we're already mixing it up in hand-to-hand with critters. You guys need a .75 Bess with bayonet. :haha: I figure you shoot 'em at a range that their momentum won't carry them into you. :wink: I have taken what I call "grouse shots" at deer running flat out and one or two straight at me. I shot one as it passed at maybe six feet. Shot another under ten feet at full tilt and it then ran face first into a tree hard enough to break off the antler on one side! I think it killed itself before the ball could. It can get wild on opening day in NY when lots of hunters suddenly appear and spook lots of deer.

Black powder and muzzleloaders are different stuff from high-pressure modern propellents and oversized bullets in tight bores. You aren't going to break 2,000 fps with the big stuff . . . maybe 1,800 fps. That's why you shoot a bigger ball - because you can't drive a smaller ball faster. You want to kill something bigger, get a bigger round ball. Ft Lbs? No idea. Put lots of daylight in them where they breathe and that's what drops 'em. A .54 vs. a .58 travelling at the same speed - the .58 puts more daylight in 'em.

I chose the .54 as ideal for my hunting. Whitetail, and maybe one or two possible elk or moose hunts before I slip off this earth. If I frequently encountered big critters I'd be using a bigger bore. But I don't so I ain't. :haha:

 

[jbg]

Dan[/quote]Black powder and muzzleloaders are different stuff from high-pressure modern propellents and oversized bullets in tight bores. You aren't going to break 2,000 fps with the big stuff . . . maybe 1,800 fps. That's why you shoot a bigger ball - because you can't drive a smaller ball faster. You want to kill something bigger, get a bigger round ball. Ft Lbs? No idea. Put lots of daylight in them where they breathe and that's what drops 'em. A .54 vs. a .58 travelling at the same speed - the .58 puts more daylight in 'em. [/quote]

Years ago, when a friend of mine taught me how to shoot a handgun( he was a 3 tour Vietnam combat veteran),he taught me that with a handgun you don't have the velocity, you have the choice between putting a little hole or a big hole in your target. That's why he, and I carry a .45.
I believe the same holds true for a muzzleloader.If you can shoot it accurately, go with the biggest "hole maker" you can.

 

[BS]

Okay, let the discussion begin. What are the advantages or disadvantages of one caliber over the other for hunting? We're talking PRB's here and not conicals and game larger than deer, such as elk, moose, etc. I'm wondering about speed and trajectory vs. foot pounds.

Dan

Wow! He asked about speed and trajectory and we're already mixing it up in hand-to-hand with critters. You guys need a .75 Bess with bayonet. :haha: I figure you shoot 'em at a range that their momentum won't carry them into you. :wink: I have taken what I call "grouse shots" at deer running flat out and one or two straight at me. I shot one as it passed at maybe six feet. Shot another under ten feet at full tilt and it then ran face first into a tree hard enough to break off the antler on one side! I think it killed itself before the ball could. It can get wild on opening day in NY when lots of hunters suddenly appear and spook lots of deer.

Black powder and muzzleloaders are different stuff from high-pressure modern propellents and oversized bullets in tight bores. You aren't going to break 2,000 fps with the big stuff . . . maybe 1,800 fps. That's why you shoot a bigger ball - because you can't drive a smaller ball faster. You want to kill something bigger, get a bigger round ball. Ft Lbs? No idea. Put lots of daylight in them where they breathe and that's what drops 'em. A .54 vs. a .58 travelling at the same speed - the .58 puts more daylight in 'em.

I chose the .54 as ideal for my hunting. Whitetail, and maybe one or two possible elk or moose hunts before I slip off this earth. If I frequently encountered big critters I'd be using a bigger bore. But I don't so I ain't. :haha:

I have needed a bayonet before, great idea! :blah: :blah: :blah:

 

[Walks with fire]

I thought that was a good idea myself; you could even be PC with that set-up. :thumbsup: