54 round ball twist

[screamin]

guys, I am going to send Bobby Hoyt a 28" 50 cal hawken barrel and have him bore it out to 54. I figure anything a 50 can do a 54 can do better, not to mention a 50 ball is not legal for elk in my state. This will be a round ball gun only. My question is, what twist should I go with?

I don't know if the shorter barrel should have a faster twist like 1:56 or I can go slower? maybe 1:60 or 1:66? but going that slow don't you really need a 32" barrel for longer burn times with heavy loads? I think that 90grs of powder would provide plenty of umph so a 28" barrel at a slower twist would work. I do want to squeeze out every bit of accuracy I can get as well. any advice would be appreciated.

 

[nwtradegun]

length has nothing to do with it. a 1 in 60 or 1 in 66 is perfect for a 54 cal using round ball. the barrel length is perfect for a well balanced elk rifle

 

[Rifleman1776]

length has nothing to do with it.

Agree. Anything between 1:48" and 1:66" will work. The slower twist almost always requires heavier charges for best accuracy. My choice would be a 1:48" or 1:56".
My 1:72" Jaeger requires charges way north of 100 gr. At that point, even with a heavy rifle the recoil is uncomfortable.
I know you want this for hunting but a rifle that is not fun to shoot doesn't get shot. Work up your sweet spot with the slow twist and don't fret small loss of accuracy with hunting charges. Bro. Elk won't know the difference.

 

[mooman76]

Ask Bobby. He knows his stuff. I have hear that the rifling needs to make a half turn per barrel length. I don't know if there is anything to that or if it's just a tale.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Well to get any advantage, the British found just prior to 1804, that you need a minimum of 1/4 turn for the length of the barrel. Now, if you look at the barrels that are touted as accurate... you get generally at least a 1/2 turn. so a 1:48 twist could go as short as 24", a 33" barrel could go as slow as 1:66, and a 36" barrel could go as slow as 1:72...if the customary twists used in mass production are correct.

So in theory, and factory practice...a 28" barrel shouldn't be any slower than 1:56, but say a you did it anyway. Say you got a barrel for a couple of bucks at a yard sale, and you found the first 28" from breech forward on its 42" length were good, but the rest was pitted. Say it was a .54 caliber 1:66 twist, and you had it cut and crowned to save that good 28" portion. It will give the ball a 42% twist, so it may shoot very well.

So ask the barrel rifler, what he thinks, AND ask him how much powder he thinks will be the max before you're just making large fireballs in front of your muzzle.

LD

 

[hanshi]

I agree, anything north of 1-48" will work fine. My choice would be 1-56" or 1-60" which seem to handle both light and heavy charges.

 

[Big Hammer]

Slower is better with a round ball. I shot a lot of deer with a 1-72 twist 54. I also shot a lot more with a 1-72 twist 58.

 

[nkbj]

Ask Mr. Hoyt for his best round ball rifling and tell him how far and fast you need that ball to go.
It's what he does!

 

[LaBonte]

I agree, anything north of 1-48" will work fine. My choice would be 1-56" or 1-60" which seem to handle both light and heavy charges.

Bill Large - barrel maker extraordinare claimed that 1/56" was the optimum rifling for a .54" barrel. Out of six barrels I ordered from Bill back in the 1970's even when ordered as 1/48" (like the original Hawken Bros barrels) five out of six were 1/56" (you had to know/understand/accept Bill's "prejudices" when ordering) if/when you when you ordered a barrel from him - and considering his experience...)
Overall all though I like the 1/48" twist - as used by Jake and Sam pre-1849 -[ which in most cases my rifles uses a smaller powder charge than the slower twists.]

EXAMPLE: in my 1/48" barrels in 54 caliber I generally use 90 grns of 3F Goex in my 1/56" barrels ( rifled or not) whereas I use 105-110 grns of 3F Goex in my 1/56" barreled Leman.
IMO try different loads: powder, lube, patching material, etc - albeit the shooters of centuries ago were limited in the availability of different patch sizes and used what was available to them.

 

[necchi]

First ya get a`hold of Mr Hoyt.
Then you tell him what you have, that you want it to be a round ball only barrel and your thinking large game in Utah,
,then;

Ask Bobby. He knows his stuff.

Ask Mr. Hoyt for his best round ball rifling and tell him how far and fast you need that ball to go.
It's what he does!

And that's the best thing you can do.(period)
You will not be disappointed.

 

[screamin]

Gentlemen? thanks for all the great advice. I did have a lyman deerstalker a few years back that shot 2" groups off a bench at 100 yards with 90grs of 2f so I know a 1/48 twist can get er done. and having seen the liquification of a deers vitals that was subjected to a 530 ball from that rifle, I'm sure this will be good elk medicine. But, being a perfectionist with a tendency to over anal-lyze everything, I was looking to improve that 2" group. I'll ask Bobby what he thinks, but 1/56 seems to make sense.

 

[Tom Compton]

I had a .50 barrel cut back in the 80s. Specified 1/56 twist .012" deep rifling. I wanted it to shoot well w charge as low as 60 gr FFg. Works great as a target and deer/hog hunting gun up to 90 gr FFg. Haven't tried more.

My elk/ buffalo/moose .54 has a GM 1/70 twist and shoots 120 gr FFg (that's max on powder measure and I figure that's enough). The heavier the charge you plan to use and the heavier the ball the slower the twist to keep from stripping the patch when you kick it in the butt. Stripping starts very early in the bore. Deeper rifling and a tighter ball/patch combo help too.

As far as ballistics, Barrel length will only determine the amount of powder that will be effeciently burned. Your 27"(?) barrel won't efficiently burn as much powder as my 36". If you go to FFFg to attain higher velocity you'll be kicking the ball in the butt harder.

Now you're back to twist. Ask Mr Hoyt if he can supply a gain twist and compare the $. Gain twist can start 1/100 and progress to 1/48 or what ever. The slow start allows a hard start without stripping then accelerates the spin to achieve an optimum spin rate.
Good luck
TC

 

[Rifleman1776]

Well to get any advantage, the British found just prior to 1804, that you need a minimum of 1/4 turn for the length of the barrel. Now, if you look at the barrels that are touted as accurate... you get generally at least a 1/2 turn. so a 1:48 twist could go as short as 24", a 33" barrel could go as slow as 1:66, and a 36" barrel could go as slow as 1:72...if the customary twists used in mass production are correct.

So in theory, and factory practice...a 28" barrel shouldn't be any slower than 1:56, but say a you did it anyway. Say you got a barrel for a couple of bucks at a yard sale, and you found the first 28" from breech forward on its 42" length were good, but the rest was pitted. Say it was a .54 caliber 1:66 twist, and you had it cut and crowned to save that good 28" portion. It will give the ball a 42% twist, so it may shoot very well.

So ask the barrel rifler, what he thinks, AND ask him how much powder he thinks will be the max before you're just making large fireballs in front of your muzzle.

LD

the British found

That wasn't a find, that was a claim that has been proven incorrect. It only takes a short distance for rifling to impart twist on a projectile. One or two inches will do it fine. Exhibition shooter Bob Munden often demonstrated he could hit a 6" ballon at 300 yards, offhand, with a revolver having only a 2" barrel.
Barrel length is simply not relevant to the accuracy of a rifle barrel. Burn rates, sighting plane excepted.

 

[Billnpatti]

I agree with Mooman76. You need to discuss it with Bobby before you send the barrel to him. Bobby knows his stuff and he can help you decide on what twist rate is best. Personally, I lean toward the 1:66 twist rate for a round ball .54 barrel but Rifleman1776 knows his stuff, too, and he may know better than I do about such things. In the end, though, think the best thing is to let Bobby help you decide on the best twist rate.

 

[nkbj]

screamin,
The rifling geometry Mr. Hoyt has supplied on the few round ball jobs I had is outstanding. Best I could describe it is mighty fine with semi-round bottomed trapezoidal grooves. On .58's the lands have been narrower than the grooves, decreasing the resistance to seating the ball in the pretty darn deep grooves.
Being an inveterate tinkerer has compelled me to figure out how to make the pattern shoot bullets with heavy charges as well. My flinter Renegade just needed a .58 dinosaur load to be completely fun! :haha:

Best wishes. And thanks for reminding me that I got another barrel project to look into!

 

[longcruise]

I have seen this claim of the ball stripping the rifling many times over the years but have yet to see any actual evidence that it happens. Like many"facts", they derive acceptance from repetition only.

 

[Tom Compton]

Very true a Marmot slayer like prime covering the touchhole causing a fuse effect. Larry Pletcher's high speed photography has disproved that many times but the myth is still repeated often. So is the myth that stripping the patch doesn't happen.

Fortunately or un fortunately it is fact that too loose a ball and patch combination combined with a shallow groove fast twist barrel and a heavy for caliber powder charge will fail to gain adequate ball rotation. The term "stripping the patch" may not adequately convey what is happening. An example would be loosing traction due to hard acceleration on a wet road. The effect is the RB will not stabalize and fly like the proverbial knuckle ball most obviously demonstrated in shooting a .440 ball w .015 patch in a .50 caliber rifle. If shallow groove fast twist barrels and looser ball and patch combinations were just as accurate then the bench crowd at Friendship would be shooting such a combination.

TC

 

[Alden]

Tryon to think...

...is the only shooting .54 RIFLE I own this Hawken?



OK, it's a Pedersoli Tryon Target. 32-5/16" barrel with 1:65 twist. Interestingly their .45 and .50 caliber versions are 1:48 I believe.



Uh oh, no. My Jaeger flint is .54 and like 1:28 in a 28" barrel....

:hmm:

 

[Tom Compton]

Does the jaeger shoot better with RB or bullet? RB has VERY little bearing surface for traction. Bullets have bands that are wide compared to the tiny bearing surface of a RB. Bullets also require a much higher rate of spin to stabalize them. Therefore they get fast twist and can get traction.

 

[Alden]

:idunno:

Never put a conical through either.