58 vs 54?

[longcruise]

Yes, kit from TOW.

View attachment 20473

Did you make the sling? It kinda looks out of place on that rifle but nevertheless it's a nice looking piece of work. And, you can be sure that if you got a good look at my gear you would know that I'm not knocking you on HC aspects.

 

[Tom A Hawk]

Did you make the sling? It kinda looks out of place on that rifle but nevertheless it's a nice looking piece of work. And, you can be sure that if you got a good look at my gear you would know that I'm not knocking you on HC aspects.

I bought that woven sling from Leatherman. I found it too wimpy however and replaced it with a sturdy, all leather version that is more to my liking.

 

[hanshi]

I've owned and hunted with .54 and .58 rifles as well as a .62 smoothbore. For some reason I prefer the .54 to the .58. I've found the .54 to drop deer DRT right along with the .62. I only shoot prb and never bothered with conicals.

 

[Herb]

I have been having fun playing with 50 and 54 percussion rifles, and I have picked up a 32 that I am looking forward to shooting when time permits. I see that 58s seem to be pretty uncommon, but since I do hunt elk (assuming 58 is overkill for deer based on the damage my 54 did with round ball on a smallish white tail doe) I was wondering if it would be worth keeping an eye out for a 58 round ball rifle. Any 58 shooters around? I assume recoil can be an issue? Hard to find molds, loading supplies, etc. specific to a 58? A TC Big Boar would be up my alley, although I suspect that nice ones are beyond my price range. Does any manufacturer currently make 58s that might be suitable for range/hunting?

I re-built a short (24" GRRW barrel) Leman That Carl Walker of the old GRRW made, but it was burned in a house fire. It was a .54 and I restocked it and fitted new parts as a caplock, then converted it to a flintlock. The bore was too pitted to lap smooth, so I had Hoyt rebore it to a .58. I hunted elk with it one season, and it is a good rifle for that.

I just tried to upload one photo of it, but I get this flag that says it is too large for the server to process. I do not understand this. brewer 12345, PM me and I can give you details if you want.

 

[flntlokr]

Actually, I have a 54 TC Greyhawk that I enjoy shooting a lot. I understand it to be a stainless New Englander. If that is the case, I should be able to buy a New Englander barrel and have it drop in, right? I think that a 54 New Englander bartel would be a great candidate for a Bobby Hoyt bore out to 58 in a 1 in 66 twist. That sound insane to anyone?

As for the damage to the doe, it wasn't extreme but I had never shot anything with a muzzleloader before. Last year I shot a full size mulie doe with a 200 grain 30 caliber cast bullet that did around 1900 FPS out of the barrel and the damage was sufficient that she wasn't going anywhere, but the bullet wasn't large diameter and the shot placement was perfect (quartering toward, blew up the heart and damaged both lungs, half inch diameter exit hole). This year's doe was a yearling white tail. The 530 ball appeared to expand on impact because the entry wound was closer to an inch in diameter and I hit her a bit far back. Clipped a lung, half the liver, a kidney, etc. and exited on the edge of a rear quarter. For a simple round ball, holy cow! Made me understand why 54 round ball is okey dokey for elk.

I seem to recall that TC made a .58 'Big Boar' rifle I'm not sure which frame they used, but they should be out there.

 

[SDSmlf]

I seem to recall that TC made a .58 'Big Boar' rifle I'm not sure which frame they used, but they should be out there.

The TC Big Bore (58 cal, 26” barrel, 1-48 twist) are out there, but usually pretty pricy. If you already have or can obtain a TC Renegade (or Hawken with a 1” barrel), Mr Hoyt will set you up in a 58 with whatever twist you want for about $150 including return shipping, unless he has recently raised his prices.

 

[Herb]

I have been having fun playing with 50 and 54 percussion rifles, and I have picked up a 32 that I am looking forward to shooting when time permits. I see that 58s seem to be pretty uncommon, but since I do hunt elk (assuming 58 is overkill for deer based on the damage my 54 did with round ball on a smallish white tail doe) I was wondering if it would be worth keeping an eye out for a 58 round ball rifle. Any 58 shooters around? I assume recoil can be an issue? Hard to find molds, loading supplies, etc. specific to a 58? A TC Big Boar would be up my alley, although I suspect that nice ones are beyond my price range. Does any manufacturer currently make 58s that might be suitable for range/hunting?

Here is a Leman short rifle originally built by Carl Walker, gunsmith at Green River Rifle Works. It went through a fire about 15 years ago and the barrel was given to me. I rebuilt it as a caplock, with the .54 GRRW barrel, and shot it some. The bore was too pitted to lap smooth so I sent it to Hoyt who rebored it to .58. I then made it into a flintlock. I hunted elk with it one season, and it is a handy rifle. Here are some test targets I shot with it. All powders are 100 grains, measured with weight-corrected measures for each powder. The patches are measured with a ratchet mike, then crushed (as the ball does) for the second reading. All groups from bench rest at 50 yards. I did not clean between shots, but had a damp cleaning patch on the seater jag so wiped the bore down and back at seating each ball. The trigger reach is 13 1/4 inches, a good length for hunting clothes and a backpack strap in the way. A left click on a picture will bring a larger original up.

I shot 61 shots in this series, not all targets shown here. This is a composite of 50 of those shots where the patch didn't blow. Really only nine powders with velocity averages from 1308 fps to 1637 fps. These groups were made with hunting sights and hunting velocity (and recoil) loads.

 

[Herb]

Here is a Leman short rifle originally built by Carl Walker, gunsmith at Green River Rifle Works. It went through a fire about 15 years ago and the barrel was given to me. I rebuilt it as a caplock, with the .54 GRRW barrel, and shot it some. The bore was too pitted to lap smooth so I sent it to Hoyt who rebored it to .58. I then made it into a flintlock. I hunted elk with it one season, and it is a handy rifle. Here are some test targets I shot with it. All powders are 100 grains, measured with weight-corrected measures for each powder. The patches are measured with a ratchet mike, then crushed (as the ball does) for the second reading. All groups from bench rest at 50 yards. I did not clean between shots, but had a damp cleaning patch on the seater jag so wiped the bore down and back at seating each ball. The trigger reach is 13 1/4 inches, a good length for hunting clothes and a backpack strap in the way. A left click on a picture will bring a larger original up.
View attachment 20561 View attachment 20562

I shot 61 shots in this series, not all targets shown here. This is a composite of 50 of those shots where the patch didn't blow. Really only nine powders with velocity averages from 1308 fps to 1637 fps. These groups were made with hunting sights and hunting velocity (and recoil) loads.

 

[Herb]

Hopefully, here is a photo that I could not make load above.

 

[Walkingeagle]

Herb,
I well remember your original post of this photo and its elk hunting story. It was inspirational for my decision to hunt elk exclusively with a muzzlegun this year.
Great photo sir!
Walk

 

[ppg1949]

Hopefully, here is a photo that I could not make load above.

View attachment 20580

Herb, please tell us about the rifle in the photo. It looks very interesting. Thanks

 

[Herb]

Phil, the top item is what I was given. Middle is its 24" by 1 and 1/16" GRRW barrel, which had a powder drum. All other parts were gone. I got the closest matching stock from Muzzleloader Builders Supply and bought suitable parts from Track of the Wolf. I made a flash hole liner and made it into a flintlock. The lock is a Late English flintlock. Length of pull is actually 13 1/8", not the 13 1/4" I listed above. Even that was a little too long for that backpack strap. A good hunting rifle. I had built a Leman in the GRRW shop in 1978 in a class taught by Greg Roberts, Production Manager, "Antique Custom Riflesmithing", so I know something about building a Leman. Thanks for your interest.

 

[Herb]

xxx

 

[ppg1949]

Herb, thanks for the response. Very nice. Thanks again.

 

[Hawk78]

I'm a round ball shooter and when contemplating a full stock flint Hawken build I was undecided whether to make it .54 or .58. I had a .54 percussion rifle from a previous build and have taken several deer with it with no complaint on ballistic performance. Still, the .58 seemed appealing. However, deer are the large game animal available to me and I recalled reading many years ago that the .54 caliber round ball afforded an optimum balance between velocity, energy and bullet trajectory. I shoot what most here would consider to be a heavy powder charge - 125 Grains FF, .530 ball in my Hawkens. With Swiss powder this load shoots extremely flat out to about 125 yards. Basically, no sighting adjustment is required. So, the new Hawken was made .54 and I've been delighted with its performance. Took a doe with it last Friday and it was an instant drop.

View attachment 20431

Sir, could you contact me? I have decided to purchase a .54 TOW kit like yours to be my number one deer hunting gun, and first flintlock. I was a master carpenter with limited metal working skills. I built a simple Traditions pistol kit and enjoyed it. I have aquired a tap n die set, chisels, rasp, files, etc., And already had the power tools. I am purchasing the book as well. I am 95% sure about this but would like to correspond with about 15 to 20 minutes. [email protected] 910-214-9324
I have read a lot of your post and replies,and decided your experience and expertise will help me make a final decision.

 

[Hawk78]

The TC Big Bore (58 cal, 26” barrel, 1-48 twist) are out there, but usually pretty pricy. If you already have or can obtain a TC Renegade (or Hawken with a 1” barrel), Mr Hoyt will set you up in a 58 with whatever twist you want for about $150 including return shipping, unless he has recently raised his prices.

Hey ol pal, been awhile since we have corresponded. I have a Hawken like you described. So, Mr. Holt can convert my rifle from a .45 cal to a .54 or .58?

 

[Hawk78]

Phil, the top item is what I was given. Middle is its 24" by 1 and 1/16" GRRW barrel, which had a powder drum. All other parts were gone. I got the closest matching stock from Muzzleloader Builders Supply and bought suitable parts from Track of the Wolf. I made a flash hole liner and made it into a flintlock. The lock is a Late English flintlock. Length of pull is actually 13 1/8", not the 13 1/4" I listed above. Even that was a little too long for that backpack strap. A good hunting rifle. I had built a Leman in the GRRW shop in 1978 in a class taught by Greg Roberts, Production Manager, "Antique Custom Riflesmithing", so I know something about building a Leman. Thanks for your interest.
View attachment 20641

I was born in 78, and wish I knew half of what you and other fellows here know.

 

[Hawk78]

Hopefully, here is a photo that I could not make load above.

View attachment 20580

Very nice looking BIG game hunting rifle sir! I just got through reading your targets, and pictures and info very thoroughly and it inspires me to keep on learning & finally get a flintlock. I have a Lyman GPR & Traditions' Kentucky [both cap lock .50's], T/C .45 Hawkens {considering on having rebored like you did}, Pedersoli 12 bore side x side, and a couple 1858 NMA Remington cap n ball pistols, and a Traditions' "Trapper" kit pistol I built. Thinking really, really hard about buying a TOW "flintlock" fullstock Hawken kit in .54 cal to make my #1 white tail deer hunting gun. Waiting to talk to Mr. Tom about it to make final decision. And would very, very much enjoy a conversation with you and talk about how about going about getting my .45 cal Hawkens rebored by Mr. Hoyt. 910-214-9324 is my cell, and 910-564-2252 is my home where you can leave a message if i miss your call, if u call, lol. Joining this group was one of my best decisions. Way more better fun than Facebook, hands down. I was a master carpenter with limited metal/gun smithing experience. But have aquired a tap n die set, files, chisels, punches, calipers, maginfying glasses, small little shop {on my front covered porch & inside my bedroom} with tables and vises and such. God, I have fell head over heels with muzzleloading and everything that goes along with it. I hunt only with my muzzleloaders and even open carry my Uberti 58 around my shoulder every time I venture from the my Southeastern NC swamp, into town. Matter of fact, I'm either gonna get a "Tennesse Valley Muzzle loading" rifle "or" the TOW kit. But, I am inspired enough to go ahead with the kit. Will sleep on it a couple of days, maybe/hopefully talk with you and Mr. Tom about it, and let my father give me the final decision.

 

[Hawk78]

Very informative stuff sir, learning more and more, the more I dig into this awesome sport.

 

[oldwood]

Sighted in a new .58 Cal. Colerain , "C WT" 42" , scratch build , flint long rifle a month ago. .562 r/b, compression miked .014 patches lubed w/ yellow grease scraped clean of excess lube , 85 gr. FFG , ............2.5 " groups @ 50 yds. , consistently. ..Tang mtd. peep sight.....Recoil was strong but mild. Pleasant to shoot from the bench , for a 74 year old guy. ..........This ball will kill anything it hits.............oldwood