.62 Short Barrell Flint Loads

[Jasseji]

Hello,

From today on i am happy owner of a .62 caliber Doglock Pistol from Middlesex.

The finish might be a bit too shiny but from Polish historical accords and looking at similar weapons from the 17th Century in our Castle Museum the stock is actually what it should be in case of a rough Military weapon. In my case for a 17th Century European Re-Enactor the historical accuracy is brilliant.

I would like to experiment with the best powder loads/balls/patches/ranges for this.

The barrel is 16" long with a caliber about .61-.62 (cant get the exact measurement at the moment)

What should i use ?
.58 ball with patches ?
Wads, lubed patches, overball wads ?

What combination would you recommend to start with?

3F powder as charge and primer or 3F charge 4F primer ?

I'd rather have a load as example and then work from this to get my best one

Edit: sorry for posting in rifle section - i dunno if the barrell lenght still qualifies this as a Pistol Historical Accords qualify this as a Bandolette/Bandolier - bigger than a Pistol, smaller than an Arquebus or Musketoon

 

[paulvallandigham]

Without an exact measurement of the bore, we can't be a lot of help. YOU HAVE to measure the bore of the gun YOURSELF, to know Exactly what diameter barrel you have. ONLY then can you make an intelligent selection of Ball Diameter, and Patch thickness.

Now, just to give you some parameters for guidance, assuming that the barrel is a "20 Gauge" Smoothbore barrel, its nominal diameter should be about .620. But, barrel vary from .615 to .625, and sometime even more! You can buy cast RBs from Track of the Wolf in .595, .600, and .610 diameters. Tanner will make you a mold in just about any diameter, to the 1,000Th of the inch.

BUY a Dial CALIPER, and measure that inside bore diameter. You can find them for less than $30.00 USC from many of the suppliers here- including MidwayUSA, MidSOUTH, and Brownell's. At the top of the index page to this forum is a section marked, " Member Resources". Towards the bottom of that box, is an entry, " Articles, Charts and LINKS". Click in Links, and it takes you to a list of suppliers broken down by categories of things they sell, generally. You can go directly to their websites, and on-line catalogs, by clicking on their names there.

Most of us shooting 20 ga. barrels begin with .600" diameter RBs, with a .015-.020" patch, well lubed. The fabric compresses some when pressed in to the barrel, but provides a tight gas seal for the gun.

Powder charges: I have not shot a 16 inch barreled 20 gauge, but I did quite a bit of load development with a 10" barreled 20 gauge pistol. We settled on 40 grains of 3Fg powder with the .600 RB, and a .015" patch, well lubed, at the time, with Black Powder lube and cleaner, from Dixie Gun Works. Work up and down from there in 5 grain increments, with the top being around 55 grains for that barrel length, to find the most accurate load for your gun.

Even with that powder charge, you are going to get reasonable MVs, enough to kill a deer inside 50 yards, if you can hit it. That ball weighs 325 grains, nominally, which is almost 3/4 oz! For all practical purposes you are moving a freight car out of the barrel, and it will go right through a deer at ranges out to 75 yds. You are starting with a .62 caliber hole, that only expands as the ball penetrates flesh, leaving a huge primary wound channel. You don't need more velocity to make meat, within reasonable distances for that length barrel, and open sights.

Trying different ball and patch thickness combinations, and different lubes on the patch will show the most promise for accurate loads. In some cases, changing patch lube has reduced group size in half! Changing patch thickness has been known to reduce group size to 1/4 of the prior averages. As you become more familiar with the gun, and do some test firings, come back with more specific questions. We can help you narrow down the choices, and give you more detailed suggestions about things to try you have not already done.

Do USE BLACK POWDER only in your flintlock. :thumbsup:

 

[Mike Brooks]

I wouldn't put any more than 20 to 25gr of 2ff in one of those Indian pistols, certainly not 55gr as suggested above. I have had those things apart and I believe the stock has a good chance to come apart with heavy loads, they're made out of some kind of soft bongo wood.
The ones I have had here scared the hell out of me.

 

[torn moc]

ME TOO !!!

 

[Jasseji]

Thanks for the insights paul, and thanks for your concern Mike

I've actually browsed the forum here (although i dont completely grasp the American "gauge" measurement for calibers) and had some ideas but your clarification is great

This weekend starts the shooting range treatment and i will definitely come back with the results i get - if not for additional info then maybe for future generations use

@Mike: i was concerned about this as well after reading some posts here on the forum, an initial inspection of the barrel and stock show rather more quality than i have seen in locally made Muskets which somehow survive bullets (although for them it's considered a miracle that they don't burst after the first 2-3 shots) - we will see

 

[Trench]

The gauge is how many lead balls it takes to equal one pound. A 20 gauge (.62 caliber) is 20 lead balls to the pound.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Gauge was done first back in the days before lengths, weights, and other measurements were not Standardized, so we could have NO RULERS to use. We knew, roughly the weight of a pound. So, as Trench states, a smoothbore barrel was " Gauged" by reference to the number of balls the diameter of the inside of the barrel to weight one pound. (12 Gauge means that 12 pure lead balls, the diameter of that bore, weigh one pound, or, that each ball weighs 1 1/8 ounce. 16 gauge means that each ball weighs ONE OUNCE. ( There are 7000 grains to the ounce. ))

The barrels were made first, and then a cherry made the inside diameter of the bore, to make a ball mold for the gun. On custom made guns, the smith often sold the cherry for the mold with the gun to the owner. If he lost his mold, another could be made for that gun using the cherry he had for it.

Once measurements were standardized, then machine tools, Like the Micrometer, and Calipers, rulers, and even Protractors, could be manufactured to aid in transferring, and repeating accurately the measurements you need. Before the standardization of measurements occurred, dividers, and " Strings" - with " Knots" tied in the strength at uniform distances--were used to measure distances, lengths, and even the speed of sailing ships.

Now, you don't try to load bore diameter balls down the barrel. We use a Patch, made of cloth, or paper, to help seal the bore from the hot gases behind the ball, and to prevent lead from the soft ball from rubbing off on the inside of the bore. That is why its so important to measure the bore of your gun EXACTLY, to the thousandth of an inch. Then, and only then, can you speed the process of choosing a fabric the correct thickness to wrap around your lead ball.

Yes, you can use " trial and error" methods to find the right combination, but "Luck" is a sorry excuse for measuring items correctly. Of course, we would all prefer to be lucky than good, but that goes right along with winning a huge Lottery by buying one ticket! The odds do not favor you.

Since you are new to all this, I can't think of a better set of information for you to have to read, than to buy Dutch Schoultz' Black Powder Rifle Accuracy System. You can order it from him at his website: It only costs $15.00 USC.
http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/

And, you need to bookmark Bob Spenser's Black Powder Notebook
http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html

because his site has so many wonderfully informative articles of use to you on it.

Keep us informed. :thumbsup:

 

[Jasseji]

well, not 100% new but new to ball shooting with BP weapons - only used them for re-enactment purpose and of too questionable quality to risk a ball earlier

I will follow all commandments to the letter

 

[Many Klatch]

I have a couple of Japanese made smoothbore pistols. One takes a .64 ball and the other is about a .66 caliber. The .64 is more reliable so that is the one that I shoot the most. I find that a .010 patch over 35 grains of 2F is plenty of boom. I have also shot buck and ball, one .64 round ball and 3 to 5 .32 round ball and I have tried 6 to 8 .32 ball. All are devastating at 15 yards.

BTW, I had to get a custom Jeff Tanner mold so that I could cast .64 ball. I would imagine that you will have to get a custom mold as well. Until the new mold comes in, buckshot is a lot of fun

I don't think you want to use 3F, stick with the slower acting 2F. Have fun, be safe.

Many Klatch

 

[chuckpa]

I have one of the English Sea Service Pistols and I cast a .603 dia. ball from a .60 Lee mold. I forget the patch thickness that I used, but I found that 40 grains of FFG Pryodex worked well for me. At 20 feet I can keep all the shots in the kill zone on an IPSIC target. I did cross the target with duct tape to represent a soldiers crossed belts. Have fun

 

[Joel/Calgary]

I've actually browsed the forum here (although i dont completely grasp the American "gauge" measurement for calibers) and had some ideas but your clarification is great

To add a complication to what has already been said about the "gauge"system (= UK "bore" designations), one will sometimes see a weapon designated by its bore diameter and sometimes by the ball it is intended to shoot. I vaguely recall rifles being often designated this latter way, as "taking balls of 40 to the pound", while the bore itself could have been in the 39 to 37 bore/ga range. This in contrast to a reference to a barrel being bored 40 balls to the pound, which would likely use balls of 42 to the pound

My deer rifle is of 35 bore (bore .510", with groove diameter of .520") and I use balls of 37-39 to the pound (.500-.490"), adjusting the patch thickness accordingly. In my 16ga fowler, I use balls of 17 to the pound.

Also, one sometimes finds the balls designated as "number", as in a fur trader ordering "shot" in sizes of No.28, No.29, and No.30 to allow for the variation in the bores of the trade guns and in individual Native's preferences in loading them. I also recall one 19th British sportsman using both the "15 balls to the pound" and the "Number 15 ball" references in different places in his book (but I cannot recall which author - possibly Forsythe).

Regards,
Joel

 

[bpesteve]

...
16 gauge means that each ball weighs ONE OUNCE. ( There are 7000 grains to the ounce. )

Oops, a small typo here. There are 7000 grains to a pound, making it 437,5 grains to an ounce.

 

[Dphar]

Thanks for the insights paul, and thanks for your concern Mike

I've actually browsed the forum here (although i dont completely grasp the American "gauge" measurement for calibers) and had some ideas but your clarification is great

This weekend starts the shooting range treatment and i will definitely come back with the results i get - if not for additional info then maybe for future generations use

@Mike: i was concerned about this as well after reading some posts here on the forum, an initial inspection of the barrel and stock show rather more quality than i have seen in locally made Muskets which somehow survive bullets (although for them it's considered a miracle that they don't burst after the first 2-3 shots) - we will see

I would much rather shoot a welded iron barrel made in the 18th century than a modern barrel made of material unsuitable gun barrel use. Like tubing.
It is impossible to inspect or proof a barrel made of the improper material and then think its "safe".
The thing that seems incredible to me is that people will go to a public range and shoot them around innocent people or their kids.
Dan

 

[Jasseji]

the locally made muskets comment was about replicas made for re-enactment here for roughly 200$ a piece

I got the new pistol to the range today and fired a few shots.

Unfortunately the home-made flint split after 3 of them and i had only 6 bullets here and 2 flints so i didnt shoot too much (.58 leftovers, somehow in Europe you can get only .54's and .69's, rarely .58 even and no .60 at all)

I used a double .010 oiled patch - remarkably i hit the target at 25 yards with 35 grains of 3F powder - the bore is roughly .618 (15,7mm)

The recoil didnt kill me although i need some time before i attempt single-hand shooting

Now i have to wait for a set of new flints and .60 bullets imported from the US

 

[Jasseji]

my math skills suck i believe - got a Caliper from the UK now (a freind has one) and it measures .625 caliber

where did i get .618 i have no idea...