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stalkerhawk

40 Cal.
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Can anyone tell me what kind of muzzle energy and velocity you can get out of a .75 cal loaded with a 600 gr.ball with a 150-200 gr. powder charge,and what modern rifle would you compare it with at a 100 yrds.
 
Man that's gonna be a shoulder whacker. Guessing at a velocity of 1600 FPS at the muzzle you should get an energy of 3800 foot pounds. A rough approximation as far a paper energy goes would be a .338 Winchester at the muzzle. At 100 yards velocity is down to 1066 FPS and energy to 1064 and compares to a 30-06 but as you can see there is really no good way to compare a round ball to a cylindro-conoidal projectile.
 
Ok then what kind of wompability does it have on game. Say grizzly,moose,black bear,and elk at a 100-150 yards.With a well placed shot,and how does it compare to the .62 cal
 
It'll do a fine job but 150 is going to be a stretch. I would try to not have to go beyond100-110 yards. That .75 compared to a .62 is about like comparing a .50 to a .58. The advantage is always going to be with the larger bore.
 
Here, where I hunt, a shot past 50 yards is uncommon. Thick brush, and very hilly, so unless in a cleared area, most of the game is close. I have shot deer at 15 yds, and bear at 24 feet. At close ranges, nothing has walked away from my
.75 smoothbore. If hunting moose, I'd switch to a wheel weight cast ball for better penetration, but otherwise, my gun works exceptionally well on everything. My usual hunting load is a patched .735 ball with 140 gr FFg.
If deer , then sometimes only 120 gr.
My favorite gun in this cal/gauge is the Jim Chambers fowler. I shaved some off the cheek so the gun does not bite me. My 'Bess" is a killer if I get my head down too low!!!
 
stalkerhawk

No offense intended but in my opinion folks wanting to shoot game at 150 yards with a roundball gun are missing the point of shooting a muzzleloader.

Almost all Traditional muzzleloading hunting shots are taken at 100 yards or less.
Why?
Because accurate shooting with a roundball and iron sights pretty much limits accurate shot placement to those distances and accuracy is what counts with muzzleloading.

To me, shooting a gun having massive amounts of muzzle and down range energy for making long shots is a modern way of thinking.
While some may really like the idea I must wonder why they don't just stick to a .300 Weatherby Magnum or a .45-120 cartridge gun?

Anyway, to get off of my soapbox, I don't have any information that would give a velocity for a 200 grain powder load behind a .750 roundball.
(By the way, that is roughly an Elephant gun and even these were not shot at ranges of 150 yards).

Guessing at a muzzle velocity of 1800 FPS that would give a muzzle energy of 4577 FT/Lbs.
The velocity at 100 yards would be 1145 FPS and 1851 FT/Lbs.
The velocity at 160 yards would be 986 FPS and 1373 Ft/Lbs.
If the gun was sighted in for 100 yards the roundball's drop would be 13.8 inches at that 160 yard range.
 
stalkerhawk said:
Ok then what kind of wompability does it have on game. Say grizzly,moose,black bear,and elk at a 100-150 yards.With a well placed shot,and how does it compare to the .62 cal

Trying to compare a round ball to a modern cartridge is an exercise in futility. The same rule set doesn't apply to both. As far as killing power, I know that a .54 round ball puts elk down faster than my .45-70 (or .338 Win. Mag. for that matter) ever did, yet it's paper numbers don't even compare. A hotly loaded .75 will be more than enough for anything on this continent and many others. The big critters like moose and bear will go down like hit by a freight train if you put the ball in the right spot.

Shooting any round ball at 150 yards is iffy though. You are going to be getting a lot of drop once you get past 100 yards or so. Enough that precise range finding is going to be important or your shot could be extremely high or low.
 
stalkerhawk said:
Can anyone tell me what kind of muzzle energy and velocity you can get out of a .75 cal loaded with a 600 gr.ball with a 150-200 gr. powder charge,and what modern rifle would you compare it with at a 100 yrds.

Its apples and oranges. Muzzle energy is really meaningless in the context of BP.
I can tell you this much you are shooting a ball very close to the diameter that John Taylor was using in a 10 bore smoothbore gun to kill 14 African Elephant ("good bulls") and a number of rhino when a shipment of modern ammunition was lost in the 1930s. He was using 6 drams (165 grains) of BP.
ANYONE with modern experience will tell you this load does not carry enough energy to kill elephant but it does perfectly well with hardened lead balls, pure lead will not work.
He used heart lung shots and stated he never lost an animal he shot. But a 10 bore is NOT a charge stopper on game of this size.
I will tell you that with 150-200 grain of powder it is adequate for anything in North America WITHIN ITS RANGE. 100-120 yards.
BUT the rifle MUST be stocked for heavy recoil and should weigh about 11-12 pounds. If you shoot 200 grains with a .735 or slightly larger ball it will be a handful.
The best stock design is that of an English sporting rifle.
A 69 caliber (14 bore) with a 15 gauge ball with 5 drams of powder would reportedly drive a ball through a smaller Indian Elephants head from side to side. This load will produce 1600-1650 FPS and something in the range of 2600-2800 ft lbs of (meaningless) energy. By 100 yards it will be down to about 1000 ft lbs of (meaningless) energy.
The energy theory of killing power greatly favors high velocity projectiles. As a result powerful BP guns, ML and cartridge, seem underpowered when this comparison is used.
The writer who described this, Jame Forsythe, shot extensively in India since he was a "Game Ranger" there. He also stated that a 16 bore was about as small as anyone would take against dangerous game. A 16 bore ball is .662" in pure lead.

Dan
 
Great info Dan. :thumbsup: Personally I wouldn't recommend a big bore loaded like that past 50 to 75 yards. I haven't seen any one yet that can hit the broad side of a barn with a big bore stoked with a healthy dose of powder. By the time it is sighted in the shooter has developed such a flinch that accuracy is long gone. Recoil with a 12 bore with that powder load is brutal, personally I'd go for a gun in the 12 to 14 pound class, and as Dan suggested, you better have it stocked by a professional familiar with big bore recoil, otherwise it will be shot a 1/2 dozen times and sold or stashed in the closet. :wink:
I have patterned a 10 bore for a customer with 140gr 3fff and 2 1/2 oz shot and I will tell you that 8 shots is about all I could handle in one day.....add another 100 gr to that and somebody would have had to call the mortuary! :haha:
 
I agree with Zonie on the long range roundball shot. If you want a muzzleloader for longrange hunting, I really think you need to be looking at the caplock rifles of the later 1800's that were designed for such things. A very good book that has been mentioned here lately is Ned Roberts The Caplock Rifle...can't recall the full title, but it's easily available.
 
To answer you second question, You are NOT going to see much difference in effect on game shot with a .75 caliber RB vs. a .62 caliber RB. Both are HUGE balls, with massive weight. Both, in pure lead, expand quickly even at low velocities.( Where a high speed hollow point bullet fired at 3,000 fps will not not expand much below 1500 fps,Pure Lead RBs have been known to expand well at velocities of 600-800 fps.)

For your information, High speed bullets kill by producing both a small primary wound channel, and a much larger secondary wound channel cause by the vacuums created by the high speed bullet traveling through flesh. The secondary would channel cause so much shock to the internal organs if a good chest shot is made, that blood pressure drops quickly, and/or the nervous system is shocked enough to cause the animal to become unconscious, and remain so while he bleeds to death.

By contrast, a Patched Round Ball( PRB) kills by making a huge Primary Wound Channel( PWC) in the animal. That is why ball placement is so much more important than it is with high speed bullets.

There is NO secondary wound channel created by a PRB striking the flesh, so there is NO reason to try to push a RB out the barrel fast enough to create the trailing vacuums to cause it.

The RB has terrible ballistics, which means is affected by DRAG more than any other shaped of projectile. Its fine if used under 100 yds, and the MV is kept under the speed of sound. However, if you exceed the sound barrier, the ball sheds velocity even faster than a stripper sheds her panties, and when the ball comes through the Trans-sonic zone, all kinds of bad things happen to move the ball in some direction different from your POA( point of aim).

You can expect 25 % of your MV to be lost in the first 50 yards. At 100 yds, 40-45% of your MV is lost. Once the ball drops down below the speed of sound, the drop in velocity slows, but the affect of gravity on the ball makes for a steep downward curve, so that accurate range estimation is critical after about 120 yards.

A 20 gauge ball has a Ballistics coefficient of .084, while your 75 caliber ball has a BC of approx. .102. If you look up the BCs for any modern bullet you will find all but the wadcutter pistol bullets greatly exceed these numbers.

The best conclusion you can make if choosing to hunt with a RB from a musket or rifle is that it is a 100 yard, and lesser range gun, largely due to the open sights and your ability to shoot open sights accurately. But compounding the problems of the open sights in hunting condition is the terrible BC of a RB. It just won't retain that velocity down range, no matter how fast it leaves the barrel.

There is a law of aerodynamic motion that controls all that, too, but I have forgotten which one it is. Basically, whatever goes faster in air, will slow faster. Since accuracy is the true name of the game for shooting MLers at game, learn to get close, pick your shots, and use a load that will assure you that you can place the ball where you aim.

Monster loads in any mler just are the wrong way to go. They generate too much recoil, and recoil causes bad flinches that spoil well aimed shots. Wounded game results, that usually gets away to suffer and die someplace else.

Do some penetration testing with your chosen RB gun, comparing target loads to that monster "hunting " load you think is necessary. You will be very shocked to learn that the two balls will penetrate about the same distance. A 4 dram load of powder in a .75 caliber gun is still a lot of powder( 110 grains), and more than enough to push a RB out fast enough to kill any game in N. America. a 3 dram load makes more sense, IMHO( 83 grains) with such a large diameter ball.
 
Do some penetration testing with your chosen RB gun, comparing target loads to that monster "hunting " load you think is necessary. You will be very shocked to learn that the two balls will penetrate about the same distance. A 4 dram load of powder in a .75 caliber gun is still a lot of powder( 110 grains), and more than enough to push a RB out fast enough to kill any game in N. America. a 3 dram load makes more sense, IMHO( 83 grains) with such a large diameter ball.
One other point, as Paul says "monster loads aren't needed for shots with big bore rifles since you're going to be shooting at less that 100 yards. If it were me I'd shoot what ever load shoots the most accurate, not necessarily the load that kicks the worst.
I built a .62 for a customer years ago that insisted I sight the gun in and sight it in for 140gr of 3fff :shocked2: I stopped dumping in more powder when the group went all to hell, that was at 100gr. It loved 95 gr and shot exceptionally well. He was very annoyed with me, and went ahead and loaded it with 140 gr. anyway and then complained it was the most inaccurate rifle he ever owned. :surrender: :haha:
 
Probably should have explained that it would only shoot MOB (minute of buffalo) groups with that much powder. :blah:
 
I use 3 Drams of 2FF Swiss in my .735 smoothy with a .715 ball because it is an accurate load and performance on deer has proved to be outstanding! I can't imagine doubling the powder charge!
 
Swampy said:
I use 3 Drams of 2FF Swiss in my .735 smoothy with a .715 ball because it is an accurate load and performance on deer has proved to be outstanding!

That's about 82 grains?
 
Boy, some people are never satisfied! :cursing: I am sure you laughed about that " customer " for long periods of time after that. :shake: :youcrazy: :haha: :rotf: :thumbsup:

I have talked to guys like that, at the range, in sporting goods stores, and on line. One guy was in a local sporting goods store, asking the owner if he knew anyone who could find a gun builder to make a " left-handed hawken rifle in percussion and in .50 caliber." The owner knew me, so he asked me to help the guy. The man stood 6'6" tall, at least 260 lbs. and he related that he had been shooting a T/C .50 Cal. "hawken" rifle that weekend with his family, and it hurt him. So, he was looking to find a gunmaker to build him a gun that would fit him better. I inquired as to what load he was using, and he indicated they were loading "150 grains of Goex 3Fg powder". I asked about what projectile they were shooting, and he indicated they were shooting the T/C Maxiball! He could not tell my the weight of the bullet.

I reached forward and extended my hand to shake, and told him I would be privileged to shake his hand. He shook my hand and then asked, Why? I looked him right in the eyes, and said," because its still attached, and you don't have any extra holes in your head!"

I told him that is the Maximum load recommended for that gun by T/C, and asked him who told him to shoot that load? He claimed the clerk in the Discount store that sold his brother the gun told them the load. I told him my target and hunting loads for my .50 cal, shooting RBs, and the fact that the recoil is no bother at all, and he looked at me as if I were lying to him.

I had him call the NMLRA to get the names of several gunmakers who regularly advertised in the classified ads in Muzzle Blasts that they would make a LH Hawken rifle for customers. I also suggested that he reduce that powder charge back to 70 -80 grains and see if it didn't shoot more accurately for him, and do less damage.

I suspected that he was mounting the butt to his shoulder, rather than out on the arm, but didn't even go there. He said he only shot 5 shots with that gun before his arm was too sore to continue.
Ya Think?????

Eary in my shooting experience, I witnessed a nipple come out of a gun and disappear overhead somewhere. We looked for half an hour, without luck, trying to find it. The gun as a .40 caliber. The load was Nowhere near excessive. The gun had been cross threaded, and the owner was shooting the gun for the first couple of times when the nipple vanished. He also found after having a gunsmith look at it that the missing nipple had American threads, while the bolster was threaded for metric threads.

With flintlocks I have seen, and I have fired overloads that sent long jets of fire and smoke out the vent hole, endangering shooters many feet from my location on the firing line. I have yet to lose a vent liner, but I can understand the concern of some shooters about losing one. There just is NO need for such loads. :nono: :shocked2: :hatsoff:
 
Thanks for all the info.First I don't intend to shoot beyond 100 yrds. or load that heavy.I was just gathering info to understand what it can and cannot do.Now if I'm shooting paper or silhouette how far out can I reach all things considered.
 
"...how far out can I reach all things considered" ?
------

A real long way if accuracy isn't desired.

I can't say how far if accuracy is desired because it depends on having a powder/ball/patch load that the gun likes.
It depends even more on how well the shooter can shoot with old fashioned iron sights.
It depends on how much wind is blowing and even the angle of the sun relative to the sights.

The really good roundball shooters can keep their shots in a 2 inch circle at 100 yards shooting offhand. How far could they keep the shots in a 6 inch circle? I have no idea but on a still day I would guess out to beyond 200 yards.

Of course it is for a muzzleloading Schuetzen rifle that shoots elongated bullets but the official 200 yard target has a 4 inch diameter 10 ring.
 
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