777 3F in a Flintlock?
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NO!
rodwha
58 Cal.
You'd almost certainly need a real BP to start that, and if you can get that you may as well just use the real thing.
Flintlocks almost certainly need real BP to ignite. Substitutes generally require a higher temperature to ignite it that a flintlock just can't provide.
Flintlocks almost certainly need real BP to ignite. Substitutes generally require a higher temperature to ignite it that a flintlock just can't provide.
I would not waste my time trying to see if any substitute powder can be ignited by a flintlock. All of the substitute powders have a much higher ignition temperature than any of the traditional black powders.
As the others have said, the ignition point of all of the substitute powders including 777 in any grade is too high for the flash of the powder in the pan to light reliably.
Not only that but assuming some of the synthetic powder in the pan does ignite from the sparks coming off of the frizzen, it doesn't burn right to do its job.
The priming in the pan must "flash" or make a mini-explosion to drive its flame thru the vent hole in the barrel to ignite the main powder charge.
Black powder, being a low class explosive does this quite nicely.
The modern synthetic black powders do not.
Rather than making a little explosion in the pan, the substitute black powders just burn without any explosion of any kind.
This kind of burning won't get the job done in a flintlock.
If you have some real black powder to prime the pan with and you put about 5 grains (volume) down the barrel of a flintlock, you can then load the rest of the main charge using a synthetic on top of it.
Doing this, the 5 grains of real black powder that's in the barrel will ignite from the pan flash and it in turn will ignite the synthetic powder.
Not only that but assuming some of the synthetic powder in the pan does ignite from the sparks coming off of the frizzen, it doesn't burn right to do its job.
The priming in the pan must "flash" or make a mini-explosion to drive its flame thru the vent hole in the barrel to ignite the main powder charge.
Black powder, being a low class explosive does this quite nicely.
The modern synthetic black powders do not.
Rather than making a little explosion in the pan, the substitute black powders just burn without any explosion of any kind.
This kind of burning won't get the job done in a flintlock.
If you have some real black powder to prime the pan with and you put about 5 grains (volume) down the barrel of a flintlock, you can then load the rest of the main charge using a synthetic on top of it.
Doing this, the 5 grains of real black powder that's in the barrel will ignite from the pan flash and it in turn will ignite the synthetic powder.
Sometimes you just have to test things out for yourself. Go for it.
My personal experience with 777 in flintlock was interesting. When it worked, got some of the best groups I ever had with a flintlock. Problem was it didn't always go boom. Just went pop. Forget exact BP charge under 777, guessing it was 10 to 15 grains (FYI, used only BP in pan), but there was a sufficient enough charge of BP to send the bullet (wasn't a round ball) and the 777 charge out of the barrel without igniting the 777. This happened a number of times. If you watch cable or satellite TV you know where the phrase 'BUSTED' came from. Well, the phrase applies to the myth of using 777 in a flintlock - MYTH BUSTED. At least in my experience. Please report back on how your testing goes. Always willing to learn.
My personal experience with 777 in flintlock was interesting. When it worked, got some of the best groups I ever had with a flintlock. Problem was it didn't always go boom. Just went pop. Forget exact BP charge under 777, guessing it was 10 to 15 grains (FYI, used only BP in pan), but there was a sufficient enough charge of BP to send the bullet (wasn't a round ball) and the 777 charge out of the barrel without igniting the 777. This happened a number of times. If you watch cable or satellite TV you know where the phrase 'BUSTED' came from. Well, the phrase applies to the myth of using 777 in a flintlock - MYTH BUSTED. At least in my experience. Please report back on how your testing goes. Always willing to learn.
rodwha
58 Cal.
The "myth" isn't busted. You used real BP both in the pan and as a starter for your T7 charge that still didn't always work. The statement is that subs all by themselves won't work. You'll need BP.
The "myth" being proposed, at least as how I interpreted it, was that 777 could be successfully used as a propellant for flintlock rifles. The busting part is that even with a black powder prime in the pan and a black powder kick start, the 777 did not reliably ignite.
Once again, the substitute powders do not function reliably in flint lock muzzle loaders. That observation is not busted.
Once again, the substitute powders do not function reliably in flint lock muzzle loaders. That observation is not busted.
zimmerstutzen
70 Cal.
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Some folks are always spending money and time trying to reinvent the wheel. If a suitable substitute powder for flinters was available, word would spread faster then CNN fake news.
rodwha
58 Cal.
Indeed!
I know it's not universal, but BP is often cheaper than most substitutes, which is why I mostly buy Olde Eynsford these days. All of the zip T7 offers and likely with a lower deviation shot to shot, and without concern with what time may do to it.
I know it's not universal, but BP is often cheaper than most substitutes, which is why I mostly buy Olde Eynsford these days. All of the zip T7 offers and likely with a lower deviation shot to shot, and without concern with what time may do to it.
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colorado clyde said:
Still the best answer... :grin:
Billnpatti
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colorado clyde said:
Clyde, let me add my :metoo: to your succinct and very correct answer.
rodwha
58 Cal.
Even if BP would reliably ignite subs wouldn't there be a variable in how quickly which would effect the pressures, thereby giving a higher deviation shot to shot?
rodwha said:
Hard speculating on Fantasy.
Clyde's answer was best NO
When I was playing with 777 over BP I got the tightest groups (when the main charge went boom) out of that particular gun that I ever got, before or after trying 777. Based on the consistency of the groups, one would want to believe there was little variation in pressure from shot to shot.
I tried it in my flintlock for the first reenactment I went to because I couldn't find any black powder. I did use it in the pan and every once in a while it would go off - maybe every third or fourth or fifth time. It was better than pyrodex which NEVER went off. The whole thing was extremely frustrating. Then I found a supply of black powder just 6 miles from home and all was right with the world once again.
As Colorado Clyde said, the best answer to your question is still "NO"
Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:
Dan
As Colorado Clyde said, the best answer to your question is still "NO"
Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:
Dan
rodwha
58 Cal.
Ah, but it seems to work just fine for some. And Hodgdon even claims it works with a booster charge. I don't have a flinchlock to say, and being that BP is both easier to get and cheaper I'd not care to find out, except maybe one day to find out. But it holds no sway over me to do so.
rodwha said:
Billnpatti
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6 Shot said:
After reading all of the responses and from my own experience, it is obvious that no substitute alone will work, at least not reliably, in any flintlock gun. Flintlocks require black powder to work. It is possible to load a duplex load with about 10 grains (measured) first and then the balance of your load of one of the synthetics. You must use black powder in your pan. NO getting around that. When loading a duplex load, you can get consistency and accuracy only when you measure the black powder when loading a duplex load. You cannot simply sprinkle some unknown quantity down the bore and then dump your synthetic powder on top of it.
Bottom line is that synthetics can be made to work in a flintlock only when black powder is involved. The stuff simply won't work on its own in any flintlock, period. If you can get the black powder to make up the duplex loads, then it follows that you have some access to black powder so why not just order enough to be able to use it alone in your flintlock. It's a lot less trouble and you will be so much happier doing so.
