A Few Words About Smoothbores.

[Le Loup]

In the 18th century smoothbores did NOT use a patched ball, the ball was loaded in the same way as using shot, with wads or wadding.

An Essay On Shooting 1789.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Au contraire. Many militia and all (certainly most) military used paper cartridges. And since all able-bodies were expected to turn out for militia . . .

 

[Le Loup]

Au contraire. Many militia and all (certainly most) military used paper cartridges. And since all able-bodies were expected to turn out for militia . . .

Obviously Sk back then this was not classed as a patched round ball, it was simply a faster means of reloading. The English version of An Essay On Shooting was basically a copy of the French version. The paper cartridge was simply a wad of paper holding the ball in place, regardless of the fact that the ball was encased in the paper.
Regards, Keith.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Interesting. I always thought of it as a "patch of paper"; surrounding the ball for a tight fit. Three thicknesses of paper is hardly a wad.

That's what I use to shoot my smoothbore with a single ball.

 

[Stumpkiller]

PS - I have also read accounts of leather or wool cloth patched balls used by aboriginals.

You said "did NOT use" with capitals. Perhaps "seldom used" or "little documentation for" would have been better?

 

[Grumpa]

I agree with Stumpy, the paper around the ball is a "patch". However, if the powder is dumped from the cartridge into the barrel, and the paper (with the ball still attached) is rammed down with the ball above the paper, the paper becomes a wad between the "patched" ball and the powder. And if the "patched" ball precedes the paper that held the powder down the bore, that paper is now a wad over the ball. This is all semantics, and I don't think a definitive "NOT" is justified.

Historically, was the paper cartridge loaded in one or the other manner, and was this something that was consistent with various military units in different armies? Or was the surplus paper discarded before ramming home the "patched" ball? I would think a banner of paper waving in the wind would be detrimental to the accuracy of the ball to which it was attached, although, if it was trailing behind the ball, it might have a stabilizing effect. (I understand that fine accuracy was not the forte of the smoothbore musket, and in the urgency of battle the speed of just ramming the entire ball/paper combination down the bore would be preferable to wasting time to remove the excess paper.)

Modern" paper patched" bullets use paper ranging in thickness from onion skin to newsprint to stationery, so I don't think the thickness of the paper is that important to the discussion at hand.

This is an area of interest with which I have no experience. I stand ready to be educated.

Richard/Grumpa

 

[Grumpa]

PS: I believe leather patches were also used by some shooters on the Frontier, under various circumstances, as leather was readily available.

Richard/Grumpa

 

[Rat]

I sure like that long-gun and the pistola. Those are nice. I would agree with Stumpkiller on the wording though. Seldom, rarely, might be more accurate language. I mean, what would STOP a person from loading their smoothbore with a patched ball, if he didn't want the ball rolling out the barrel, or just thought he might get better accuracy, or thought it was quicker, or easier, or better? Certainly most, or many people were familiar with how a rifle was loaded. I've shot my paper cartridges with the "tail" up, "tail" down, and with the tail ripped off and what's left of the "patch" encasing or patching the ball, and I don't see any difference. Patching a ball with greased cloth, however, makes a noticeable difference in accuracy, in my smoothbore at least. We really never can say never.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I bite the paper, pour the powder, seat the ball and tear off the excess paper where the powder was.

English style cartridges. If you try pushing in the empty paper tube first after "handling your cartridge" and pouring the load it can bunch up and be impossible to ram down.

 

[Le Loup]

Interesting. I always thought of it as a "patch of paper"; surrounding the ball for a tight fit. Three thicknesses of paper is hardly a wad.

That's what I use to shoot my smoothbore with a single ball.

I would term that as wadding, not a wad.
Keith.

 

[Le Loup]

PS - I have also read accounts of leather or wool cloth patched balls used by aboriginals.

You said "did NOT use" with capitals. Perhaps "seldom used" or "little documentation for" would have been better?

I have listed my period documentation Sk, I would be very interested to to read or have a link to your documentation.
Thank you.
Keith.

 

[Rat]

Yikes, glad I never had a "paper down" or "tail down" load jam. Normally and usually I tear off the tail, and then put the ball, in it's "patch" open side up, paper side down. I'll remember that next time I'm practicing my rapid fire. What kind of paper is that? I use brown grocery bag. Which I will admit, was NOT ever used to load a smoothie in the 18th century. JUST kidding Le Loup, just flipping you some with a smile on my face.

 

[Le Loup]

PS: I believe leather patches were also used by some shooters on the Frontier, under various circumstances, as leather was readily available.

Richard/Grumpa

Documentation please Richard.
Thank you.
Keith.

 

[Le Loup]

I sure like that long-gun and the pistola. Those are nice. I would agree with Stumpkiller on the wording though. Seldom, rarely, might be more accurate language. I mean, what would STOP a person from loading their smoothbore with a patched ball, if he didn't want the ball rolling out the barrel, or just thought he might get better accuracy, or thought it was quicker, or easier, or better? Certainly most, or many people were familiar with how a rifle was loaded. I've shot my paper cartridges with the "tail" up, "tail" down, and with the tail ripped off and what's left of the "patch" encasing or patching the ball, and I don't see any difference. Patching a ball with greased cloth, however, makes a noticeable difference in accuracy, in my smoothbore at least. We really never can say never.

I agree that you get more accuracy over a longer distance using patching rather than a wad or wadding, but my post was about period authenticity. If I see documentation on the use of patching used in the 18th century, then I will believe it & publish it.
Keith.

 

[tenngun]

I don’t know a military cartridge can be counted as a patched ball. All the manuals on loading refer to wadding and notpatching. Often blanket WADS are mentioned in relation Indian shooting.
In firearms traps ant tools of the mountain men Russell quotes a Canadian about shooting patched ball in a smoothie but that old spoil sport Gus ( )found the original quote and Russell misquoted the original.
However;
There were smooth rifles sold on the frontier. The ‘Kentucky Rifles’ of the battle of New Orleans lost most of their rifles on the trip down and were shooting smooth bores. Men like Glass and Coulter lost rifles and had to make due for some time with fusils. In all of these cases the shooters would have been familiar with patching ball.it strains credibility to think none of these guys patched a ball for their smoothies. The men of the ‘Kentucky Rifles were running patched ball down their bores all therir lives. So even if it was just the first shot ?
To be 100% hc, you can only prove wads, but.....

 

[Rat]

Okay, I get you now. I believe you are talking about, "most commonly", or under formal conditions such as military or militia, etc. Just sounded at first like "no patched ball was ever loaded into a smooth-bore, ever"!!! We know that's not true. And we know that many things that were considered very mundane, and "every day", and "everyone knows-that-so-why-would-we-write-it-down" were never documented. And sometimes, documentation is not always accurate.

 

[Le Loup]

I bite the paper, pour the powder, seat the ball and tear off the excess paper where the powder was.

English style cartridges. If you try pushing in the empty paper tube first after "handling your cartridge" and pouring the load it can bunch up and be impossible to ram down.

Interesting, I have never had that problem with my fusil.

Keith.

 

[George]

I'm with Keith, I've been looking for any definitive, unquestionable documentation showing that patched balls were ever used in smoothbores for about 25 years now, with not a shred turning up. I'd certainly like to see some, so I call, time to lay down your cards, "show 'em if you got 'em."

 

[Rat]

Soon as I get done building my rocket ship-time machine, I'll really teach you guys something. I'll bring back a patched musket ball from the 18th century! Ha.

 

[Le Loup]

Okay, I get you now. I believe you are talking about, "most commonly", or under formal conditions such as military or militia, etc. Just sounded at first like "no patched ball was ever loaded into a smooth-bore, ever"!!! We know that's not true. And we know that many things that were considered very mundane, and "every day", and "everyone knows-that-so-why-would-we-write-it-down" were never documented. And sometimes, documentation is not always accurate.

Like I said, I will believe it when I read the documentation. There is too much assuming & guessing in Living History, I prefer to stick with the facts when documentation is available.
I agree that someone MAY have used patching if they were using patches in a rifle, but then would a rifleman change to using a smoothbore? I don't know.

"In firing with ball it is observed, the better the ball fits the piece, or the less windage there is, the greater will be the force of the discharge".

"If the ball in it's passage out, rubs against the left side of the barrel,it will whirl towards that side, & as the right side of the ball will therefore turn up against the air during it's flight' the resistance of the air will become greatest on the right side....."
An Essay On Shooting 1789.
Keith.