A little Help, Please.

[RussB]

Somebody help me out here, I've lost the thread on making "Paper Cartridges", I think it was Musketman, or Stumpkiller, Or, it could have been Daryl.....who had a wonderful page on the in's / out's of doing this, and I seem to have lost it, or erased it, or something! I'm going blind trying to find this thing.
Would somebody point me in the right direction. Please.
Thanks, Russ

 

[musketman]

There was a few post reguarding the paper cartridge, this should get you started...

Ctg. Pouch or box simple comercial

Making Paper cartridges

 

[Liver eatin’ Johnson]

Also, a page about making the rolled paper powder cartridges ( no bullet ) used by reenactors:

http://www.19thindiana.com/rolling.html

 

Man guys and most originals for muskets wer made with parallel sides.
; I make mine tapered. It's easier to roll them, there's a smaller end to bite ff so there's less waste powder and the smaller end, ripped off, gives a tiny funnel for priming the pan. I made up a tapered plug from pine or spruce (carved) for rolling the paper. I find a single sheet of ink-jet paper makes 4 ctgs. for the Bess.
; As well, once the bottom is torn off with the teeth, it is shoved into the muzzle. When hunting, I will use the paper ctg. for priming s well, saving several seconds with that method. By the time I get the rod out of the pipes, all of the powder is drained to the breech and the ball and paper is rammed down onto the powder. Due to the low pressure involved in these large bores, the paper seals the gas pressure very well indeed. I found with the .69 rifle and paper ctgs., the accuracy was identical to patched ball & they also went into the same group.
:

 

[musketman]

As well, once the bottom is torn off with the teeth, it is shoved into the muzzle.

What if you don't have any teeth like Maxiball? :haha:

Do you have to gum the paper ctg open?

Could get your powder soggy, Ha... :haha:

 

[RussB]

Thanks fellers! This was all part of it, but there was one particular "page" that pertained to "wrapped shot", I've been kinda working off that for about 6 / 8 weeks now and wanted to look at it again. Seems I've lost it, or deleted it. It had to do with folding the corners on the shot end of the paper and using paper as wadding....there was also questions regarding the use of this particular load in the woods while hunting (fire danger?) anyway, has this thread been deleted? I hate it when this happens!
Sorry for all the trouble.
Respectfully, Russ

 

[musketman]

RussB: I think this may be what you're looking for there...

Paper Shut Cup

 

I did a post a while back on pre made loads for my fowler.
I make them out of paper with shot on one side, divided off by the cards and tied. Then the powder is added to the other side, the ends twisted, tied then waxed. Once you have a dowel of the right size its pretty fast an easy. I have never had any problem with powder leaking into the shot side even from loads that were done 2, 3 years ago.
to load you simply tear off the twist on the powder side, dump it down, take out the over the powder cards "and wad if you use one " load them down.. tear off the shot side dump it down, all thats left is a 3 1 /2 inch tube of paper and 2 over the shot cards . i always put 2 in just in case I drop one or lose it while loading .
I have used the paper as well but it breaks up your pattern some .
if thats what you are looking for shoot me an e-mail and i will send you a drawing of what they look like . right now I cant upload to my web site to send you off a photo.

 

[RussB]

RussB: I think this may be what you're looking for there...
Paper Shut Cup

Thanks Musketman, but I've already been there. I found that post yesterday evening and spent an hour plus trying to decipher what was said. Probably good stuff, if you ever get it all straighten out in yer head.

From what I'm seeing around our Rifle Range, this is going to be one of the best Grouse seasons in years, I mean years and years....and I ain't going have my smoothbore ready! :cry:
We have had a very dry spring and I first started seeing chicks in April, about early to mid April, and now I swear I believe they have had a second brood as I'm seeing nore chicks this past week. I've mentioned this to several of the old timers and they think I'm looney, they say it's just a "late hatch" we've been seeing.
I dont think so. I've NEVER seen two hatches before, and I may well be just as looney as they're saying, but I just don't think so. Anyway, seeing all those birds has got me blood pressure spiking, since I may end up having to hunt with something other than my smoothie. 1 Sept.is still over a month away, and if "push comes to shove" I'll use my old method of two tubes taped together..one with powder, the other with shot. It's slow as the seven year itch, but it will get the job done.
Russ

 

Thanks for that repeat on the information. I wasb't sur about the going own the tube or not. It breks up the paterns, eh? I thought it might, make them uneven, at least, and herefore never the same which they need to be to be consitant on flying birds.
: Although it's almost blasphemous, I picked up a couple bags of 10 guage steel-shot ups. They're much thicker than lead-shot cups, stiffer, slit only part way down and also the proper size for the .75cal barrels. I mic'd them at .740. I dont even know what brand they are as the clear bags wern't marked. Musketman might like them as they have a pink blush to them. They were cheap, that's for sure.

 

[RussB]

I did a post a while back on pre made loads for my fowler.
I make them out of paper with shot on one side, divided off by the cards and tied. Then the powder is added to the other side, the ends twisted, tied then waxed.

Captachee....You mention "sides", did you mean "ends"? I think you did, just want to make sure.
(Check your PM)
Thanks, Russ

 

[RussB]

Thanks folks, I think I found the one I was working with.
http://www.serve.com/rbriggs/couriers/9-96/cartridge.html

I "think" this is what Capachee was describing...or close to it.

It seems to cover about all a newbee would be asking.

I'm going to build a "cartridge box", something similar to what Daryl has shown in his picture.
This "shot cartridge" thingy can in no way be considered Rocket Science, but one can feel mighty clumsy when trying it without some kind of guidance.
Russ

 

You see where in the picture on the page you linked to where this person ties off just on top of the ball?
The cards in my loads at just below this with the shot above them on one side and the powder below them on the other,
When I tie off the center I leave about 4 inches of string left on each side of the knot. After twisting the ends of the load I tie them off with those strings then fold the ends over and seal with a dab of candle wax.
I have found that by tying the loads in three places with the same string it keeps the load from breaking in the center. No shot /cartridge box is needed you can simple drop them in your shot bag with your other accouterments and off you go.
For quick ref I label one side

 

[RussB]

No shot /cartridge box is needed you can simple drop them in your shot bag with your other accouterments and off you go.
For quick ref I label one side

 

[RussB]

You see where in the picture on the page you linked to where this person ties off just on top of the ball?
The cards in my loads at just below this with the shot above them on one side and the powder below them on the other,
When I tie off the center I leave about 4 inches of string left on each side of the knot. After twisting the ends of the load I tie them off with those strings then fold the ends over and seal with a dab of candle wax.
I have found that by tying the loads in three places with the same string it keeps the load from breaking in the center. No shot /cartridge box is needed you can simple drop them in your shot bag with your other accouterments and off you go.
For quick ref I label one side

 

you loaded the completed charge down the barrel ? COOL i can see where you would get a tight pattern that way .
here is what i do
i only use 2 over the shot cards with no wad. for some reason my fowler dosnt like a wad . now when you load
1)tear off the end and dump your powder .
2) take out the cards and put one over the powder card "heavy cardboard" and put it in your mouth .
3) start the other over the powder card.
4) put in the wet over the powder card and run both down
5) now dump your shot down
6) add one over the shot card or part of the paper
this load gives me aprox 28 inch pattern at 25 yards when over 70 grains of FF with 7 1/2 and 4 mix.

you will find that in order for the paper tube to come off the shot it must be split down the side just as the plastic shot wads are in a shotgun shell or it will keep you shot pattern to tight .

if you want to load this complete wrap as i think you did then i would at least tear off the paper on the powder end and only load the shot end with the cards as one peice. then once the shot end has been loaded down tell the shot itself is even with the barrel take you patch knife and cut off everything above the shot .
then place an over the shot card on top of you load to hold it in place . this should alow it to come apart better in flight

 

[musketman]

you will find that in order for the paper tube to come off the shot it must be split down the side just as the plastic shot wads are in a shotgun shell or it will keep you shot pattern to tight .

Won't the shot leak out before you load it if the paper tube is split down the sides?

 

[RussB]

you will find that in order for the paper tube to come off the shot it must be split down the side just as the plastic shot wads are in a shotgun shell or it will keep you shot pattern to tight .

Won't the shot leak out before you load it if the paper tube is split down the sides?

Musketman...That was my thoughts exactly. Perhaps running a "Road-Runner" (That sharp star pointed wheel, used for marking leather to stitch it) might do the trick...once you know where to put the tiny performations.

Captchee...I tore the powder end and "dumped" the powder in the barrel. Then I seated the wad, which was once inside the paper, but now loose. I then reversed the paper and seated the shot STILL INSIDE THE PAPER, then I placed another OS wad on top....all with one stroke motions. No "tamping", or "packing" it down, just a smooth stroke untill it stopped under pressure. Surely I broke / tore that paper with the shot while doing this....maybe? Or, maybe I should have gave that "shot bag" a couple good whacks just to make sure it broke....I dunnno!
I think your thoughts on dumping everything...completely, and sticking the paper in your pocket is probably as close as I'm going to get to efficency, there's probably not a nickels worth of difference in the "speed" of either process, once it practiced a bit.
Thanks fellers...This ain't something that's found in every book you might pick up. You gotta work at it....seems.

I wish shooter575 would stick his head up again, he's been doing this manure for years with those Skirmishing folks and claims to have accomplised some pretty good speeds. I would like to think that once I got into a good covey I could at least two, maybe three, birds out of it.
Respectfully, Russ

 

Russ,

Sounds like you came up with a hell of a goose load.

 

I then reversed the paper and seated the shot STILL INSIDE THE PAPER, then I placed another OS wad on top....all with one stroke .
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Correct you made a load in a shot cup.
and thats what I was saying in order for the paper to fall away the cup must be slit.

The tube/paper kept the shot tight much as a modern shot cup dose. However if you look at a modern shot cup you will see that the sides are slit to about 3/4 of the length of the cup.

I tried many types of load cups, some just as you did, and some with splits only 3/4 others 1/2 and some down to 1/4 when working on my fowler. What you will find is that the farther down you split the cup the less it will hold your shot together at distance. What happens is the cuts in the sides allow the cup to peal away from the shot, the shorter the cuts the farther the cup will stay with the shot and hold it.

If you were say to put 1 1/2 oz of shot in something like a little bag and load it down the barrel you and tamp good you will still find that the shot is in almost a cup size pattern if not in a single hole, this is because the paper is dragged with the shot and not pulled away as we would think would happen.Instead what you get is something like what the police use in riot. Guns called a bean bag shot /load


To test this take you brown paper bag