A New Montana Hawken

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Herb

54 Cal.
Joined
Mar 19, 2004
Messages
1,955
Reaction score
457
I say new because likely no one has seen this one before. It is in storage at the Montana Historical Museum and Vic Reiman showed it to me. You Hawken experts will say "That's not a Hawken!" and although I am in no way an expert, it is not like anything I've seen, except there is another like it on the Buffalo Bill Historical Center website. This one had about a 38" barrel. The triggerguard is a little like Track's London style fowler, #TG-Fowl-L-I.
MHSHawken_zps00c9cc89.jpg

Unusual breech plug.
MHSLock_zpsaed6b3a6.jpg

The long toe plate has a patch box release button.
MHSToe_zpsf38d0a81.jpg

The patch box has a flower engraved on it (hit Control+ to enlarge). The Butt plate is 4.5" tall, has a 3" return and a 1.07" belly. Nothing like it in Track's catalog.
MHSButt_zpsb5db906e.jpg

Unusual cheek piece and hump in comb line.
MHSCheek_zps57214437.jpg

What is the inlay for, not an apparent repair.
MHSPanel_zpsd96f8a5c.jpg

Long entry pipe. Keys enter from right, ends not notched.
MHSForend_zps9756f56f.jpg

A longer dovetail than on the Bridger Hawken.
MHSFront_zps1b984672.jpg

The muzzle is relieved for ease of loading.
MHSMuzzle_zps3ed431f5.jpg

The owner didn't like buckhorn sights, filed the horns off.
MHSRearSight_zps2546461b.jpg

Unusual J&S.Hawken stamp. Appears to have been double-struck and misaligned.
MHSStamp_zps51ecbe53.jpg
 
Herb,

Thanks for sharing the photos of the J&S Hawken.

I talked to Vic Reiman of MHS about this J&S Hawken rifle when I was doing research on the GRRW Bridger Commemorative Hawken.

I believe this is the same rifle that John Baird wrote about in a Feb 1980 issue of Buckskin Report. Here is a copy of that article.

80_02BRBaird-WebberJampS_1_zps14412e89.jpg


80_02BRBaird-WebberJampS_2_zps02b4efcb.jpg


As the article states, Ed Webber made a copy of this J&S Hawken rifle that was to be used by Leonard Allen of Western Arms Corporation, located at the time in Santa Fe, NM and Uberti of Italy to make a mass produced J&S Hawken replica. This project evidently got started in the late 70's as Baird wrote about the project as early as 1978.

78_08BRBaird-WebberJampSHawken_zps5a0dff64.jpg


Here is another article from 1978 with pictures of the rifle Ed Webber built.

78_09BRBaird-WebberJampS_1_zps962e8614.jpg


This project was known as the Baird-Webber J&S Hawken.

78_09BRBaird-WebberJampS_2_zps74aba79e.jpg


Uberti made a prototype of the Baird-Webber J&S Hawken which Baird inspected and wrote about in 1979.

80_02BRBaird-WebberJampS_4_zps2aa03b4f.jpg


Here is a Western Arms advertisement from the October 1978 issue of Bucksking Report that shows the Uberti Baird-Webber J&S Hawken as well as a Sam Hawken rifle that Western Arms later called the Santa Fe Hawken. Note that the ad says that Allen and Uberti planned to build a factory in Santa Fe to manufacture these rifles.

78_10BRWesternArmsad_2_zpsb12a03e4.jpg


Unfortunately, the Baird-Webber J&S Hawken never progressed beyond the prototype stage, but Uberti did start production of the Sam Hawken rifle in Italy, and Western Arms marketed it as the Santa Fe Hawken and as well as a special edition called the Jedediah Smith Commemorative rifle.

The failed Baird-Webber J&S Hawken project has caused some confusion in the BP community and may have led some people to believe the Jedediah Smith Commemorative rifle is a copy of a J&S Hawken rifle that Jedediah might have owned as well as the mistaken belief that the Santa Fe Hawken was a copy of Kit Carson's Hawken. Neither of which is true. The Jedediah Smith commemorative and the Santa Fe Hawken are essentially the same pattern with the former being a special edition of the latter. They appear to be Italian copies of a custom rifle built from Cherry Corners parts or possibly an Ithaca Hawken, which was the successor to Cherry Corners. The Uberti Hawken and the Ithaca Hawken have very similar characteristics.

Sorry for the lengthy post. And thanks again for pulling the original J&S Hawken rifle out of MHS storage and taking the pictures for us.
 
Thanks Herb. You are da Man.

Thanks to you too Mtn. Meek.

I sure miss the Buckskin Report. I had more than a few years worth of issues and loaned to a friend when I went in the Army. Never saw them again.
 
Herb, this one goes along with what you once told me. There are many examples out there of Hawken rifles and often, "no two look exactly alike"!

Thanks for the pics and the information. This is interesting!
 
There is a pencil drawing of the MHS J&S Hawken rifle by Ed Webber in Baird's FIFTEEN YEARS IN THE HAWKEN LODE (copyright 1971), page 89. This is the earliest reference I've seen of the rifle.

The breech bolster on this rifle is not the typical snail we expect to see on a Hawken rife, but a few other J&S Hawken rifles have a similar bolster. Baird's HAWKEN RIFLES: THE MOUNTAIN MAN'S CHOICE pictures one in Plates 39 and 40 from what is likely a J&S Hawken rifle, though the barrel markings are illegible (This rifle was in Ed Louer's collection and is now in James Gordon's collection). The same book has pictures of another in Plates 47 through 51, formerly in the K. O. Leonard collection, now in the Museum of the Fur Trade.

MFT J&S Hawken
JB69HAWKENstretch_zps5c86d748.jpg


The one that Herb refers to in the Buffalo Bill Historical Center is probably this one (G. W. Atchison Hawken).
P1030171_zps9b9e7d15.jpg

G. W. Atchison Hawken
AtchinsonHawkenB_zpsb3506edf.jpg


I've seen similar bolsters on Eastern made rifles of the period and on English made rifles and pistols. The Hawken brothers either copied this breech plug or purchased commercial breech plugs for some of their early rifles.

The patch box on the MHS J&S Hawken is also found on other J&S Hawken rifles.

This J&S Hawken has both a similar patch box and breech bolster.
scan_zps683802d8.jpg

scan0001_zps474a9e3f.jpg

scan0003_zps32f3e26f.jpg


The Sublette-Beale J&S Hawken also has similar patch box.
Sublette-BealeHawken_zps6ca2c5e9.jpg


The trigger guard on the MHS rifle, as viewed from Herb's photos, looks like it has a few features in common with the Peterson J&S Hawken, now in the BBHC collection.

The MHS J&S Hawken looks unusual to us only because were are used to the later Sam Hawken rifles and don't often see that many of the early J&S Hawken rifles.
 
Mtn Meek, what a great lot of information you have! Thanks for all that. I can't find that BBHC Hawken I saw, but I think the same one is on page 364 of Jim Gordon's book. It has the same patch box and the fowler style trigger guard. The lock is different, though. Cheek piece is a limp pancake rather than the oblong one in Helena. I thought the Helena rifle was ugly, but I do like the fowler triggerguard.
 
Herb said:
Mtn Meek, what a great lot of information you have! Thanks for all that. I can't find that BBHC Hawken I saw, but I think the same one is on page 364 of Jim Gordon's book. It has the same patch box and the fowler style trigger guard. The lock is different, though. Cheek piece is a limp pancake rather than the oblong one in Helena. I thought the Helena rifle was ugly, but I do like the fowler triggerguard.
here ya go - more later
http://old.bbhc.org/collections/bbhc/CFM_ObjectPage.cfm?museum=CFM&VarObjectKey=22284
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Hello Herb,

Yes, the Hawken on page 364 of Jim Gordon's book is the same rifle I was referring to as the Peterson J&S Hawken. Baird devoted all of Chapter 3 in his MOUNTAIN MAN'S CHOICE book to this rifle. At the time he wrote his book, the rifle belonged to Archie Peterson. Different style locks and bolsters for sure, but very similar fowler style trigger guard and some similarities in patch box, though the Peterson Hawken patch box does not have a finial like the MHS J&S rifle.

I'm not surprised by your reaction to the Helena rifle. The Bridger and Carson Hawkens are the zenith of the Hawken rifle evolution. Sam and his workers had brought the lines and architecture of the mountain/plains rifle to near perfection with those versions. And they are beautiful.

But then beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I've always been more interested in the J&S rifles than the Sam rifles.

I have some more questions about the MHS J&S Hawken you photographed. It looks like the lock plate is stamped or engraved with "TRYON" over "PHILDA". Is that correct? I don't know if I've seen a Tryon lock on a Hawken before. According to Charles E. Hanson, Jr. in his book, THE PLAINS RIFLE, Tryon was not only a builder but also a supply house for rifle and pistol component parts, not too unlike TOTW and MBS today. I've seen similar breech bolsters on Tryon and/or Deringer rifles. I wouldn't be surprised if the Hawken brothers didn't buy the lock and breech plug on the subject rifle from Tryon.

In addition to the length of the barrel, did you happen to take any measurements of the barrel diameter? I'm curious whether the barrel is tapered or swamped.

Did the inlays look like German silver or sterling silver to you?

The trigger guard in your photos looks to be very shiny. Is it iron/steel or silver?

What was engraved on the inlay on the cheek piece? Looks like it could be "ETC" over "St. Louis". Hard to read the old style script in the photo, though.

Is the nose cap German silver or pewter?

Was there something engraved/stamped on the inlay between the toe plate and trigger guard?

I believe Baird had described the stock on the Helena rifle as walnut rather than maple. Was that your impression, also? There are other J&S rifles with walnut stocks, but not many from the Sam period.

The MHS J&S Hawken hasn't been on exhibit in a long time and some like Dan Phariss thought it might have been lost. I was glad to hear from Vic Reiman that it was still in their collection, and especially glad that you took the time to photograph it for us.
 
LaBonte, thanks, that is the one with a similar fowler style trigger guard and patch box. Meek, Vic Reiman had another appointment and so I couldn't take much time with this rifle. The stock is walnut. The lockplate is engraved TRYON over PHILADA. The toe plate, lock plate and trigger guard all look the same metal, iron with the finish worn off. The cheek inlay is engraved ETC over St Louis. I cannot tell if the toe inlay is engraved. I think the escutcheons are German silver, but I don't know. The nose cap is not rusted, does not match the entry pipe, so it might be poured pewter with some paint, stain or dirt on it. I closely examined my photos above by hitting Control and the + sign to enlarge the detail, and Control and 0 to reduce to normal. I notice Ed Webber didn't like the cheek piece either and changed it on his prototype. I did not take any barrel measurements but my impression is that is was a smaller diameter barrel. I did not look for swamp or taper but did not notice it. You could E-mail Vic Reiman and ask him your questions. I don't know how you tell German silver from sterling except with an acid test, maybe someone else here can tell us how.
 
I had asked about this rifle at the MHS a couple of years ago and the person I talked to did not know of it.
He thought it might be down at Ft Union or some such. I was short of time, I only go to Helena for VA appointments, and did not press the question farther.
I am certainly glad it has surfaced. Its a very nice J&S Hawken.
The stock design seems to indicate Jake's hand, this buttstock form vanished with Jake's passing it seems.
John Baird's "Fifteen Years in the Hawken Lode" has a line drawing of this rifle done by Ed Webber before he had access to it I think. Probably from a photo since it shows a square tailed lock.

To those who do not like it. Yeah the cheek piece is a little clumsy. But its a real fur trade era Hawken that shows its Kentucky Rifle roots more than the later Gold Rush/Oregon Trail era massive S Hawken and still later rifles surely by Gemmer. I like the J&S rifles. The Petersen rifle is also slimmer as is one of the fullstock rifles in Baird's first book. The other FS looks like a Sam built rifle and is apparently very similar to one Don King used to get a pattern for the flint Hawken FS rifles he used to make.
People get too impressed with the Bridger Hawken, but we need to remember this is probably the last rifle he owned and likely dates from his Cavalry Scouting days not the Fur Trade.
These ML rifles, the western "American" rifle, hung on out here until the advent of the Sharps and Remington Cartridge rifles in 44-77 and larger and were slow to die out since they were far better hunting arms than the Spencer and the various pistol caliber Winchesters. The man who was traveling with John Bozeman when he was killed (probably by a white man BTW) or at least in the area, was reportedly carrying a FS Hawken, this rifle was pictured on the internet as part of an auction IIRC. They shot flat and were good killers of game, within their range fully equal to the Sharps for everything except maybe large bears and in many cases were more accurate.

Dan
 
Back
Top