A Question of Twist

[mancill]

Well the more I learn the more questions I learn to ask. So I got to shoot a TC hawkin today 50 caliber. The recoil was very different than a center fire rifle. It was real nice. The fella only had sabot bullets but the rifle was deadly accurate. So I am absolutely going to get a rifle. So my next question is about the twist. I only want to shoot lead balls so I know I don't need a fast twist. So if I had to choose between 1:48 or 1:60 which would be best or would I not be able to tell the difference.

 

[Zonie]

Both twists will work with a patched roundball.

Often, the slower 1:60 twist barrels will have rifling grooves that are slightly deeper and these seem to work best with patches, especially with heavy powder loads.

The difference in recoil between black powder and modern smokeless centerfire guns has been noticed by many.

It is due to the slower burning rate of the powder.
The slower rate accelerates the bullet/ball slower so the total energy is spread out over a longer period of time.
It's kinda the reverse of gently stopping your car verses slamming on the brakes.
Either way will stop the car from 45 mph but stopping slower won't send little Billies Ice Cream cone past your shoulder and into the windshield like slamming on the brakes will. :grin:

 

[Spikebuck]

If I knew I was always going to shoot only roundballs, I'd get a 1-60. If I thought I was going to shoot roundballs some and conicals some, I'd choose the 1-48.

 

[galamb]

Some of your "choice" may be dictated by what you buy.

If you are in the market for a used T/C or Lyman etc, a great many of them were built in 1:48 twist (in the 45 to 54 cal range).

If you are going to have someone build a rifle for you, most "in stock" barrels from the current barrel builders will be in the slower twist 1:56, 1:66, or 1:70 depending on who made the barrel - a 1:48 would be more of a special order and could take some time to acquire.

In 50 cal I owned a shorter barreled (28") 1:48 twist and my current 50 which is a longer (36") 1:70 twist.

I don't shoot thousands of balls a year and in fact don't shoot the 50 cal much anymore, but having said that I didn't notice any difference in accuracy within "my" normal range (I sight at 75 yards in this caliber) between the two different twists and barrel lengths other than the accuracy that can be naturally attributed to a longer barrel (little "twitches" affects the impact point far less the longer the barrel - think pistol versus typical rifle as a comparison)

 

[Walks with fire]

Having owned both 1/48 and 1/66 twist, my opinion is it isn't going to matter much. My loads are always under 100 grains and generally 80-90 even for deer hunting. If I were to shoot beyond 100 grains of powder then I may sway more toward the slower twist.

I have a 1/48 .54 Lyman Deerstalker that is very accurate at 80-90 grains. I once had a TC Hawken that was 1/48 and .50 caliber, it was very accurate as well. If your looking for the very best accuracy with heavy loads the slow twist may be better; I don't know for sure though. I have a couple of 1/66 twist TC PA Hunter rifles and they do pretty good as well. I think the Lyman is my most accurate though.

I do think the carbine length production guns of say 21"-24" of barrel would perform better with the faster twist. I have a RMC flinter with a 1/28 twist and shallow grooves that shoots ball with 80 grains of powder as well as any of them so who knows.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The other factor is torque.... the modern rifle launching the projectile with more force for greater speed has a much tighter twist rate... and that translates into higher torque experienced by the shooter... the stock wants to twist more in your hands.

This is noted in Instructions for the Formation and Exercise of Volunteer Sharp-Shooters c. 1804, where the author mentions the "disagreeable" recoil from rifles with a 1:48 twist and faster. The authors objective was long range firing (200 yards) against human targets, so heavy powder loads and a .62 caliber rifle were to be used, but to reduce the "disagreeable" recoil, to speed loading, and to reduce cleaning, the twist rate was 1/4 turn in 30" or 1:120.

LD

 

[Rifleman1776]

Both will work with rb. But the faster 1:48" twist will be easier to find a 'sweet spot' load for your rifle and give less recoil. Slow twists (generally, there are puzzling exceptions) require heavier charges to stabilize your ball. These days economy of powder use is a consideration. I would go with the 1:48".

 

[Billnpatti]

If you like the half stock plains style of rifle, often called a "Hawken", you will find far more of them with a 1:48 teist rate. It is the twist rate used in the real Hawken rifles. It is aan excellent twist rate for either balls or conicals. If I were going to have only one rifle, I'd want a .54 or a .50 caliber and I would choose a 1:48 twist rate. T/C made some very nice rifles but they are out of production and it will be getting harder and harder to find parts for them. If I were you, I'd look for a Lyman Great Plains Rifle (GPR) in .54 or .50 caliber. They are excellent guns and very aesthetically pleasing. YOu will also need to get a copy of Dutch Schoultz' black powder rifle accuracy system. It is worth many times the asking price of only $20. www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com Dutch will adddress most of the questions that you will have and he even includes his home phone number so you can call him and talk to him in person when you have an accuracy problem. You can't beat it with a stick.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

But the GPR has a 1:60 twist barrel... :idunno:

From the Lyman website under Great Plains Rifle

"This classic muzzleloader offers such high quality features as a 32" barrel with 1 in 60" twist for patched ball and hunting loads, double set triggers, Hawken style percussion "snail" with clean out screw, separate ramrod entry thimble and nose cap, and reliable coil spring lock with correct lock plate. Available in .50 and .54 caliber flint or percussion. Factory assembled or kit form."

LD

 

[Sure Shot 2]

Having seen many different types of projectiles available today in stores for 50 cal. including patched ball.
No doubt about it. I'd advise a 1-48 when considering a purchase of a traditional rifle for that (above) reason alone.
Otherwise if wanting to shoot patch ball only. Extended twist rates are more accurate for that purpose. i.e. >1-60//1-66//1-70.

 

[Billnpatti]

I may not have said it right. A 1:48 is an excellent choice and many plains rifles and others are made with a 1:48 twist rate but a GPR is an excellent choice for a plains style rifle, too. I just did not include the word "too". I'm old. I'm crazy sometimes.:haha: I had a flint GPR. It was a beautiful rifle and a dandy shooter but I ran across an even more beautiful custom rifle and sold the GPR to pay for the custom rifle. I miss my GPR but what I got makes up for it.

 

[Col. Batguano]

A 1:48 with a RB is going to need a tighter patch than a 1:66 to shoot it accurately, but both will perform about the same once you find the right combination. The slower twist will just have a bigger range of things that will work similarly.

 

[longcruise]

Suggest you make your choice more on the basis of fit and comfort in your hands and at the shoulder. I have 48, 60, 66 and 70. They all shoot well with prb and mostly without too much fiddling around. But, one of them has a klutzy trigger/set trigger/trigger guard arrangement. even though it is a great prb gun, it does not get shot that much.

 

[Wes/Tex]

A 1:48 with a RB is going to need a tighter patch than a 1:66 to shoot it accurately, but both will perform about the same once you find the right combination. The slower twist will just have a bigger range of things that will work similarly.

I would add that the tighter patch was found necessary for the early 1-48" repos because of the shallow rifling depth rather than the actual twist rate. The deeper rifling of a real Hawken (yes, I mean made in ST.Louis by those boys) actually handled various patch thicknesses fairly well, at least the one I was privileged to play with did so.

 

[nkbj]

mancill,
1:48" twist in a fifty is borderline for anything but round ball. Because of that some people can get their 48" twist fifties to handle longer projectiles (as opposed to short projectiles, round ball) and some don't. 48" just seems to be a stopping point in the general discussion of such things because major producers of reproduction arms have used it so much for their .50 and .54 bore rifles. Naturally it works better in .54 than in .50 for the longer projectiles.
That said, .50 is the most produced caliber by far and 48" is the twist most of the barrels are given. And it works great for round ball.
But it's the rifling geometry that ends up being the more important.

 

[Rifleman1776]

A 1:48 with a RB is going to need a tighter patch than a 1:66 to shoot it accurately

Huh????
That is a weird :youcrazy: notion. Sorry, but there is no connection between patch thickness and twist rate. But, as long as it is safe, do yer own thang.

 

[hanshi]

If you want to shoot prb exclusively, go for the 1-60" gun and don't look back. True, you won't notice much accuracy difference between the two but the slower twist is preferable if you want a hunting rifle. 1-48" works fine with prb if the rifling is deep enough but a 1-60" will give deer accuracy (and then some) if you choose the right conical. I have a shallow rifled .54 which drives tacks with prb and gives around 3" groups at 60 yards with maxi ball and maxi hunter.

 

[Col. Batguano]

A slower twist is less likely to jump the rifling than a faster one. Once the projectile gains momentum down the barrel, and has been stripped it's almost impossible to the lands further down the bore to grab the patch. That's why barrels that have a loose spot close to the breach (due to a short seating some time in the past) have a hard time ever being accurate again.

 

[Dphar]

Well the more I learn the more questions I learn to ask. So I got to shoot a TC hawkin today 50 caliber. The recoil was very different than a center fire rifle. It was real nice. The fella only had sabot bullets but the rifle was deadly accurate. So I am absolutely going to get a rifle. So my next question is about the twist. I only want to shoot lead balls so I know I don't need a fast twist. So if I had to choose between 1:48 or 1:60 which would be best or would I not be able to tell the difference.

The 48" twist is a patched RB twist and was nearly a standard back in the day. All known original Hawken rifles have 48 twists.
The problem occurred when mass produced MLs with button rifled barrels with very shallow grooves by PRB standards since bullets do not need or particularly like deep grooves. THese require a very tight fit to prevent the patch being destroyed. So if it appears to have deep grooves it will shoot RBs fine. But you may need to scrub the plastic out of it from the sabot use.

Dan

 

[nchawkeye]

Exactly, I suspect it was a marketing ploy as well...

T/C figured why just sell rifles??? Let's sell Maxi Balls and Maxi Hunters as well...

And later, let's sell a lube and proclaim that all petroleum lubes gunk up the barrel...