A TC Under Heavy Recoil

[nkbj]

Gentlemen,
I'd like to ask a question about TC rifles, how they're designed and what forces to expect one of them to put up with.
My tentative plan is to rebarrel of a New Englander; .47 bore shooting a bullet of over approximately 550 grains weight. The barrel length being thirty-six inches.
I'm looking at this and thinking about what the rifle will absorb, the single wedge and that weak spot of all the TC rifles, the wood opposite the lock that likes to develop a crack, typically beginning in that nice radius.

My .458 bore New Englander that I shoot with as cast 45-70 type molds does just fine. The barrel wasn't lengthened any. There are no significant differences in stresses placed on the wedge or the breech area of the stock. As you can clearly ascertain by this posting I'm not so cool and collected about this combination of recoil and barrel length.
What are your thoughts?
Would you think it'll be OK?
Needs a barrel band?
Needs a longer stock?

 

[Chris In SE PA]

Several years ago I was @ Wal-Mart at the end of hunting season. They had 54 caliber Maxi-Balls at $1.00/box. I bought every box they had. It was something like 30 boxes. I did some load testing to see what shot best.

At the end I settled on 110 grains of 3F over a 360 Grain pill. The kick is worse than a 12 gauge shooting 3.5" turkey loads. Honestly, it's a bit rough on the shooter. My T/C Renegade handles it w/no ill effects.

 

[nkbj]

I think my brother settled on 2F but otherwise the same. Hunting story, one day I saw him take a running shot on a cotton tail with that load. We were always practicing off-season and when hunting small game with muzzleloaders we always went for head shots. Well, he hit a little bit low with the result that one of the hind legs was sticking out of the front of the otherwise empty rabbit.

 

[Vaino]

A .50 TC Hawken kit build was my first MLer {1974} and it was used first on squirrels {head hits only} then deer and finally took a couple of elk. Never had one iota of problems w/ it and still have it . The stock as rec'd is a "cheek slapper" so I lowered the comb and took a lot of wood off the cheekpiece surface. It has been very comfortable to shoot after the stock changes ...even w/ the "big" elk loads.....Fred

 

[Col. Batguano]

You should be fine, but pay attention to grain direction through the wrist. If there is a lot of runout there it MAY be prone to cracking. If you're really worried about it you can drill in and fit a threaded rod through the wrist starting in the breech area.

Most (wrist) cracks however are not a function of shooting heavy loads, but of mistreatment; e.g. dropping the rifle or putting perpendicular force in that area (supporting the butt and muzzle and pushing on the middle).

 

[bubba.50]

Many, if not most, cracked TC stocks are caused by the combination of recoil and an over-tightened lock bolt. And thanks to TC's overabundant use of hot-melt glue instead of quality-control to fit parts a poor fitting tang to stock to barrel relationship adds to the equation.

 

[bubba.50]

Also, never use any apparatus such as a lead-sled when load testing or zeroing sights. A heavy load will ‘flex’ a stock right in two.

 

[nkbj]

Well, after talking with you fellas and thinking about my .52 caliber fast twist Renegade with the 38" barrel... my nervous Nellie impulses about the TC stock is laid to rest. Like OK, why was I worrying about that.
I know the rifling geometry I want. And the barrel length. Got the sample bullets cast up, measured and ready to send with the barrel.

Have to figger out the sights but my eye exam is scheduled for next month.

 

[Kingwalter]

Well, after talking with you fellas and thinking about my .52 caliber fast twist Renegade with the 38" barrel... my nervous Nellie impulses about the TC stock is laid to rest. Like OK, why was I worrying about that.
I know the rifling geometry I want. And the barrel length. Got the sample bullets cast up, measured and ready to send with the barrel.
View attachment 101831
Have to figger out the sights but my eye exam is scheduled for next month.

Don’t want to hijack a thread but wondering who built your barrel? I am wanting to do the same with my renegade!

 

[necchi]

Gentlemen,I'd like to ask a question about TC rifles, how they're designed and what forces to expect one of them to put up with.

It's all really a simple consideration isn't it?
You already know TC and all the other factory gun's are just that, factory jig made to accommodate factory load recommendations.

You'll have to at least bed the tang, the first few inches of the barrel channel and the lock inlet to assure they all have a solid base.
You can't honestly expect any generic milled stock to react to over-loading the stresses without extra care,
That said, T/C stocks can take a Beating and survive.

I'm wondering why you'd make that expense with a New England'er? Why not a Renegade with double trigger?

 

[nkbj]

I like the fast twist .458 bore New Englander okie fine. Having the single trigger rather than double triggers hasn't been a problem. And, found a spare left hand New Englander barrel with pits in the bore to work with.
Just thinking out loud, I might be just as happy with recycling an old Armisport 1853. Have tinkered around with the idea of a full length stock for a TC like from Pecatonica.

 

[nkbj]

Don’t want to hijack a thread but wondering who built your barrel? I am wanting to do the same with my renegade!

It isn't built yet. Got a spare left hand New Englander barrel to send off for modification, whether it's a whole new tube, relining or how I get there.
My fast twist .52 Renegade is a rebored Green Mountain. The .458 bore New Englander was relined by Robert Hoyt.

 

[nkbj]

Sent off for a sizer.
Getting my put togethers lined up.

 

[Col. Batguano]

I never thought of a non-fully seated tang as a source of / reason for stock flexing and cracking before, but it makes complete sense.

If there is air under it, the barrel / stock combination forward of that will be able to transfer fulcrum of the force to the weakest point in the wrist, rather than use the through bolt to sandwich the wood in the entire wrist and use the combined strength to resist cracking.

As. matter of practicality, the only way to get 100% perfect seating of inletted parts is to use a plastic medium, like glass bedding for instance.

 

[nkbj]

When you look at TC's, sometimes the factory tolerances work for you and sometimes against you.
When you have the tang installed and insert the barrel, sometimes you're gonna run into the bottom of the barrel camming against the wood. The barrel kind of snaps into place. When you get that, what you may have just done is place the wood in tension across the grain. In the very area that has the greatest amount of wood removed.
And then this happens because every time the gun goes bang you're delivering a karate chop to the weakest point.

The repair was successfully completed and turned a sow's ear into a serviceable sow's ear. It's stronger now than it ever was.

 

[necchi]

The repair was successfully completed and turned a sow's ear into a serviceable sow's ear. It's stronger now than it ever was.

Nice fix.
I've had that same darn split in a Renegade I own. There's a story behind why/how it happened that's too long and don't matter.
I used epoxy with two opposing drilled/inserted brass pins to minimize the repair,, it was a chore.
That is a weak spot when ya tweek those T/C stocks.
That's kinda what prompted me to respond earlier to your post,,
Been there-done that.

 

[nkbj]

My .468 diameter sizer came in and I processed some of the bullets with the lanolin-olive oil-beeswax formula.
Pulled the thousand grain scale down off the shelf to check on their weight and duh, these babies are 605 grains. With that bit of knowledge to mull over I guess I'd best get around to choosing a barrel length.
And sighting system.
Somewhere in the back of my mind is someone saying "You're gonna put your eye out kid."

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I think bedding the tang area and the stock were the base of the barrel will rest, will a) reinforce the wood at that location, and b) give you a form fitted area that will disburse the rearward impact over a broader area to hopefully help mitigate the effect of the recoil.

LD

 

[Vaino]

I think the reason that nothing went wrong w/ my .50 cal TC Hawken is that it started out as a kit assembled by me. Although there are small gaps between wood and metal, I bought this as a hunting rifle and didn't fill the gaps w/ epoxy or other "stuff". Cracks in the stock of this rifle didn't happen at all. This rifle was used for elk w/ big, Buffalo conical bullet {435 grs}{ loads w/ 3f powder to produce low trajectories. One of the best hunting rifles I've ever had.....Fred

 

[nkbj]

Was digging around in the fun box to see what front sight to use.
Found two with inserts. One a Lyman and the other the Deluxe Globe from Andy Fautheree (late of Pagosa Springs), adjustable for windage and elevation. Think I'll go with the Deluxe.
At breakfast this morning the wife reminded me of the eye doctor appointment next week. Really looking forwards to how well corrective help can improve the view of the front sight. I might be stuck using a Malcolm or some other steampunk device.