about barrel configuration

[Rifleman1776]

I visited two museums this past weekend. While at them I observed quite a few original muzzle loaders. What I saw confirmed, to me, what I have long believed. In neither of the museums were any of the rifle barrels swamped. None. Nada, zip. All straight.
Similarly, of the smoothbores, none had tapered barrels. All were straight. None tapered. Nada. Zip. With only little exception. One smoothie was octagon to round. The octagon portion was tapered but the balance of the barrel was straight.
Meaning, to me, that the guys who have bought, or had built rifles with straight barrels or smoothies with straight barrels cannot be fairly critized for having non-HC/PC guns. They are perfectly OK historically.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I visited two museums this past weekend. While at them I observed quite a few original muzzle loaders. What I saw confirmed, to me, what I have long believed. In neither of the museums were any of the rifle barrels swamped. None. Nada, zip. All straight.
Similarly, of the smoothbores, none had tapered barrels. All were straight. None tapered. Nada. Zip. With only little exception. One smoothie was octagon to round. The octagon portion was tapered but the balance of the barrel was straight.
Meaning, to me, that the guys who have bought, or had built rifles with straight barrels or smoothies with straight barrels cannot be fairly critized for having non-HC/PC guns. They are perfectly OK historically.

 

[BrownBear]

Long as they're from Arkansas, that is. I'm betting if you looked in museums around the country you could account for the full spectrum of possibilities.

 

[BrownBear]

Long as they're from Arkansas, that is. I'm betting if you looked in museums around the country you could account for the full spectrum of possibilities.

 

[hanshi]

You've gone and done it now, Rifleman. They'll come crawling after you for such HC/PC blasphemy. Facts do not, I repeat, do not, trump internal expertise. Prime ya' gun and take cover. :grin:

 

[hanshi]

You've gone and done it now, Rifleman. They'll come crawling after you for such HC/PC blasphemy. Facts do not, I repeat, do not, trump internal expertise. Prime ya' gun and take cover. :grin:

 

[Trench]

That's not the case with examples from early Indiana until you start looking at some 1830's examples. What period were the rifles you were looking at?

 

[Trench]

That's not the case with examples from early Indiana until you start looking at some 1830's examples. What period were the rifles you were looking at?

 

[LaBonte]

You're eye may not be as good as you think - re: The Ralph Foster aka Kennett Hawken you posted and stated was not swamped - sorry but you're wrong.

1) Folks, such as Don Stith, who have actually held this rifle in their hands and taken measurements and not just looked at it in a museum case, will tell you that the barrel is swamped and is swamped in the center not towards the muzzle. Like MANY originals the swamp and taper is much less than most barrels being made today and it is not apparent without measurements. The FACTS are the facts and if you want to argue with some one that again has actually taken measurements then call Don up.
2) I, and no one else I know, has ever stated that a straight barrels was not okay on a Hawken at least, only that they were not the most common - tapers were.

 

[LaBonte]

You're eye may not be as good as you think - re: The Ralph Foster aka Kennett Hawken you posted and stated was not swamped - sorry but you're wrong.

1) Folks, such as Don Stith, who have actually held this rifle in their hands and taken measurements and not just looked at it in a museum case, will tell you that the barrel is swamped and is swamped in the center not towards the muzzle. Like MANY originals the swamp and taper is much less than most barrels being made today and it is not apparent without measurements. The FACTS are the facts and if you want to argue with some one that again has actually taken measurements then call Don up.
2) I, and no one else I know, has ever stated that a straight barrels was not okay on a Hawken at least, only that they were not the most common - tapers were.

 

[LaBonte]

You've gone and done it now, Rifleman. They'll come crawling after you for such HC/PC blasphemy. Facts do not, I repeat, do not, trump internal expertise. Prime ya' gun and take cover. :grin:

That's right facts do trump internal expertise, but looking at a bunch of guns in a museum and not taking actual measurements is not expertise. As I as noted in my previous post his "facts" are not necessarily facts at all, but are assumptions based on cursory by eye only examination and that tain't facts when compared to folks who have actually measured things and not just looked at them at in a museum....
And FWIW I've handled dozens of real originals and not just looked at them in a museum and swamps and tapers again are usually hard to tell just by eye since many if not most are not nearly as swamped or tapered as common today.

 

[LaBonte]

You've gone and done it now, Rifleman. They'll come crawling after you for such HC/PC blasphemy. Facts do not, I repeat, do not, trump internal expertise. Prime ya' gun and take cover. :grin:

That's right facts do trump internal expertise, but looking at a bunch of guns in a museum and not taking actual measurements is not expertise. As I as noted in my previous post his "facts" are not necessarily facts at all, but are assumptions based on cursory by eye only examination and that tain't facts when compared to folks who have actually measured things and not just looked at them at in a museum....
And FWIW I've handled dozens of real originals and not just looked at them in a museum and swamps and tapers again are usually hard to tell just by eye since many if not most are not nearly as swamped or tapered as common today.

 

[hanshi]

As rifle barrels go it has always been my understanding "swamping" was very common in the 18th century. Smoothbore configuration, not so sure. I thought my post might get some lively responses going but apparently no one wants to play. :idunno: Oh well, maybe another day.
:dead:

 

[hanshi]

As rifle barrels go it has always been my understanding "swamping" was very common in the 18th century. Smoothbore configuration, not so sure. I thought my post might get some lively responses going but apparently no one wants to play. :idunno: Oh well, maybe another day.
:dead:

 

[Rifleman1776]

You've gone and done it now, Rifleman. They'll come crawling after you for such HC/PC blasphemy. Facts do not, I repeat, do not, trump internal expertise. Prime ya' gun and take cover. :grin:

I expected it. I'm primed and have bullet proof vest on. :wink:
I reported what I saw. Teensy-tiny amounts of center dip do not make a swamp, IMHO. They may be encountered only because of an apprentice using the file too much in that area while trying to make a straight barrel. Dunno, just speculatin'.
BTW, yer "internal expertise" comment has me scratching my head. I'm only a bit educated, not a big academic and am wondering how anything can trump facts. :hmm: Maybe I'll try to figger that out later. Now, I need more coffee and churching before attempting any real brain puzzles. :wink:

 

[Dave K]

After seeing and owning many original guns (never enough of them though and then not often enough), the degree of swamp, depends on the time period. Hex. barreled guns I have handled or owned after the 1780's are definitely swamped.Though not near to the degree that almost all new swamped barrels are made today. To-days new swamped barrels seem to be more pronounced in their swamp than the original guns were made. Guns after around 1810 and later have less swamp generally until around the 1840's+ when all or almost all (I am sure there are no absolutes!) swamped original barrels seemed to disappear. On of my current originals (M Sheets) is from around 1840+or- and the swamp is around .060 in the waist from the breech and about .045 from the muzzle. The James Bown&Sons here, is a later gun of approx. 1870's with no swamp present at all.

 

[Robert Egler]

As I as noted in my previous post his "facts" are not necessarily facts at all, but are assumptions based on cursory by eye only examination and that tain't facts when compared to folks who have actually measured things and not just looked at them at in a museum....
And FWIW I've handled dozens of real originals and not just looked at them in a museum and swamps and tapers again are usually hard to tell just by eye since many if not most are not nearly as swamped or tapered as common today.

Well, if it looks straight and you can't tell its swamped without measurement, it is straight. There would be no point in hand making a barrel that is so close to straight that you can't tell its swamped without measuring it.

 

[hawkeye2]

"Hex. barreled guns" = Typo?

 

[hanshi]

"Hex. barreled guns" = Typo?

I don't think it's a typo. A "Hex" is a mojo put on something or someone. I see them all the time. :rotf:

 

[Dave K]

Acckkk, I don't know an oct. from a hex. I do know swamped barrel from a straight. Hex be gone from me! Sorry about my dumbness, oct to know better.