Am taking a 54 flintlock deer hunting (mule deer doe tag) this year and have been working up patched round ball loads for shooting out to 100 yards. I seem to have hit a wall and can't seem to get anything smaller than 5" groups at this distance. Granted this will work, but was wondering what everybody else considers "acceptable" 100 yard accurracy for the patched round ball.
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Acceptable 100 yard groups
- Thread starter biliff
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As a general guideline, never hunt at a distance farther than you can put a shot in a target of the size of that game's vitals for 5 out of 5 tries. A whitetail's vitals are about 10" x 14", I assume a mule deer's are somewhat larger. If you are getting 5" groups centered on the bull you are well within that guideline. If you are using a bench, I'd suggest you switch to a "field" rest like you might have out hunting and see how you group.
I'm happy with 5" at 100 yards under hunting conditions (that is, not off a bench but using a "natural" rest). That's as good as I get unless I have "friendly fliers" that accidently shrink a group. If I pulled off a 4" group at 100 yards I'd stick that target on the refrigerator - I just don't see better that 5" at 100 yards with iron sights anymore.
I'm happy with 5" at 100 yards under hunting conditions (that is, not off a bench but using a "natural" rest). That's as good as I get unless I have "friendly fliers" that accidently shrink a group. If I pulled off a 4" group at 100 yards I'd stick that target on the refrigerator - I just don't see better that 5" at 100 yards with iron sights anymore.
Stumpkiller has a good point. Off a bench rest is a lot different then some other point of rest. I like to shoot a great deal off a set of shooting sticks. If I can sit on the ground with my back to something, I have a set of sticks that I swear I can get almost as steady a rest as off a bench rest.
Most of my traditional round ball rifles will shoot at least a 5" group and on some days I do much better off the sticks. My favorite 100 yard target is a 2+ pound coffee can that I rest on the side and shoot at the bottom of, or a paint can lid. That is a 5 inch circle. I figure if I can keep all the shots in that can bottom then I am safe for shooting at a larger game animal at that distance.
My one rifle which seems to be an exception to long range shooting is my 32" inch .58 caliber with the 1:70 twist GMB roundball barrel. I do not know what it is about that caliber or barrel but it will most often times shoot under a 5 inch group.
Perhaps someone knows... do larger calibers tend to shoot longer ranges better???
Most of my traditional round ball rifles will shoot at least a 5" group and on some days I do much better off the sticks. My favorite 100 yard target is a 2+ pound coffee can that I rest on the side and shoot at the bottom of, or a paint can lid. That is a 5 inch circle. I figure if I can keep all the shots in that can bottom then I am safe for shooting at a larger game animal at that distance.
My one rifle which seems to be an exception to long range shooting is my 32" inch .58 caliber with the 1:70 twist GMB roundball barrel. I do not know what it is about that caliber or barrel but it will most often times shoot under a 5 inch group.
Perhaps someone knows... do larger calibers tend to shoot longer ranges better???
Guest
How old are you and how well do you see at your age? I USED to be able to shoot around 2 inches at 100 yards with open sights and an accurate rifle. Now I'd be happy with 5 inch groups and open sights!!!!! Except for muzzleloaders all my rifles wear an aperature sight of one variety or another.
Vic
Vic
I'm 47 and don't have the best eyesight, but know I can do better than the 5" groups I'm getting now based on shooting my open sight cartridge guns.
Want to thank everybody for their responses to my question. On a positive note, I started prelubing my patches a day in advance now vice lubing on the spot and managed to cut my groups down to 4". Then again, maybe I'm just getting used to all the commotion going on in front of my face when I pull the trigger.
Allot of things come into mind on your 5" groups.... We need more information from you.
Rifle type & barrel twist, ball dia., charge, powder brand, patch, lube, etc.
First thing that hits me is the hundred yard thing. I have a strict rule for myself & that is I don't shoot at anything past my limitations. My limitation is a 3" group max. off a bench, thus normally 75 yards is my limit off hand. If I had a really good shot & something for a rest, then I may attempt a 100 yard shot but it would have to be the optimum situation & shot. I have shot lots of under 2" groups off a bench at 100 yards, but anymore these are rare as my eyesight continues to get worse with age.. But I have some of the young bucks at the hunting camp shoot them sometimes & the rifles are capable of it, if the marksman is.
If I could not get the gun to perform around a 3" group I think am not doing my part, as I think just about all of the rifles will do that or better than that, if the person wants to work hard enough to get there.
Also, one of the first things I do when I shoot a 100 yard target is I shoot a 3" Black dot & I hold the flat of my rear sight at 6 o/c. This give me a full view of the target & it stays the same, not trying to split it or whatever, I have a full dot there to shoot at. I am sshooting for a group, not a dead center bull hit. I can adjust the sights anytime, first I must find a group. If it is 3" off right or left, makes no dif, hold the Same Sight Picture & shoot for the group. Acctually best if it don't even hit the dot, as that way it doesn't change the sight picture.
Also you mention the commotion going on in front of you..... Forget all that mess & concentrate on what the objective is. Forget the type of ignition, BP, style of gun....all of that. Concentrate on the sights.... Make yourself "Keep Your Head Down" till long after you have shot, then slowly raise your head.
Lots of times I see shooters pop that head up immediately after shooting. Bout 10 shots later & now they are popping their heads up as they are shooting & also pulling the shot off. Keep it down & follow thru...... This is Most important if you are shooting a flintlock and even all the more important if the ignition is not fast.
Rifle type & barrel twist, ball dia., charge, powder brand, patch, lube, etc.
First thing that hits me is the hundred yard thing. I have a strict rule for myself & that is I don't shoot at anything past my limitations. My limitation is a 3" group max. off a bench, thus normally 75 yards is my limit off hand. If I had a really good shot & something for a rest, then I may attempt a 100 yard shot but it would have to be the optimum situation & shot. I have shot lots of under 2" groups off a bench at 100 yards, but anymore these are rare as my eyesight continues to get worse with age.. But I have some of the young bucks at the hunting camp shoot them sometimes & the rifles are capable of it, if the marksman is.
If I could not get the gun to perform around a 3" group I think am not doing my part, as I think just about all of the rifles will do that or better than that, if the person wants to work hard enough to get there.
Also, one of the first things I do when I shoot a 100 yard target is I shoot a 3" Black dot & I hold the flat of my rear sight at 6 o/c. This give me a full view of the target & it stays the same, not trying to split it or whatever, I have a full dot there to shoot at. I am sshooting for a group, not a dead center bull hit. I can adjust the sights anytime, first I must find a group. If it is 3" off right or left, makes no dif, hold the Same Sight Picture & shoot for the group. Acctually best if it don't even hit the dot, as that way it doesn't change the sight picture.
Also you mention the commotion going on in front of you..... Forget all that mess & concentrate on what the objective is. Forget the type of ignition, BP, style of gun....all of that. Concentrate on the sights.... Make yourself "Keep Your Head Down" till long after you have shot, then slowly raise your head.
Lots of times I see shooters pop that head up immediately after shooting. Bout 10 shots later & now they are popping their heads up as they are shooting & also pulling the shot off. Keep it down & follow thru...... This is Most important if you are shooting a flintlock and even all the more important if the ignition is not fast.
He never stated how he is shooting the rifle. Offhand or Bench. If he is shooting offhand I would say that is excellent shooting also & all he needs is repetitive practice IF he has the correct load for the rifle.. But if he don't have the most accurate load for the rifle, he may not improve as the wrong load may hold him back.
However if he is shooting off a bench, he needs to find a load for the rifle, as IMHO he don't have one yet. :results:
However if he is shooting off a bench, he needs to find a load for the rifle, as IMHO he don't have one yet. :results:
I agree.
I would suggest shooting at 12-15 yards (from the bench) to start. Adjust your load up and down by 5 gr. increments until you have the tightest group possible. Don't worry about where the group is on the target.
Once you determine your group is as small as it's going to get, adjust your sights to put the group in the center of the target (still at 15 yds.).
You can try different lubes and patch material to fine tune the group also.
Now, shoot at 50 and 100 yards and see what you get.
Interesting question... I'd guess that if there's no wind, caliber will not make a difference. However, if there's some cross wind, or specially some gusts, larger balls will be less affected, and will group better at long ranges.
Guest
5" at 100 yards is acceptable as is the limit of 100 yards being acceptable if you can keep 3 consecutive shots inside a pie plate at 100 yards from every position you shoot from. THAT is how you decide what is acceptable. You won't be able to shoot off a bench at the deer, elk or moose. Personaly, I like and obtain better than 5"- off the bench. Practise will improve that as well. We have to believe your patches are just fine in standing up, the load is shooting cleanly, you AREN'T cleaning betweens shots & are shooting off the bench and using real BP, not t-7 or pyrodex.
: Now, personally, I would pick a lube, like Stumpy's moose snot or Crisco OIL or some other lube that will work for 3-5 shots. Mink oil will also do that and worked in ALL of the large bored rifles I tested it in - for accuracy for a few rounds in a big game hunting situation, it is fine.
: I would pick a , .535" round ball & a Denim .020" to .022" patch & 120gr. 2F. The 120gr. load is for flatter trajectory & 140gr. would be even better. 2F usually is more accurate in the .54 than 3F, for me. That load will probably shoot into 2" at 100yards, off the bench, given reasonable sights, and good bench technique out of a GM or equivalent barrel. IF it didn't, I'd be shocked, but would try a different lube, but keep the laod the same. I know that patch won't burn or cut with proper crown. With a ball .010" smaller, I'd go to at least a .025" DENIM patch. Denim has always been the easiest material for me to get accuracy from.
: BTW - if that barrel is a .025" deep grooved, round bottomed Getz you're on your own- I have limited experience with them. They seem to need a VERRRY thick patch and ball .010" smaller(or smaller) than the bore to load reaonably in a standard crown.
: Now, personally, I would pick a lube, like Stumpy's moose snot or Crisco OIL or some other lube that will work for 3-5 shots. Mink oil will also do that and worked in ALL of the large bored rifles I tested it in - for accuracy for a few rounds in a big game hunting situation, it is fine.
: I would pick a , .535" round ball & a Denim .020" to .022" patch & 120gr. 2F. The 120gr. load is for flatter trajectory & 140gr. would be even better. 2F usually is more accurate in the .54 than 3F, for me. That load will probably shoot into 2" at 100yards, off the bench, given reasonable sights, and good bench technique out of a GM or equivalent barrel. IF it didn't, I'd be shocked, but would try a different lube, but keep the laod the same. I know that patch won't burn or cut with proper crown. With a ball .010" smaller, I'd go to at least a .025" DENIM patch. Denim has always been the easiest material for me to get accuracy from.
: BTW - if that barrel is a .025" deep grooved, round bottomed Getz you're on your own- I have limited experience with them. They seem to need a VERRRY thick patch and ball .010" smaller(or smaller) than the bore to load reaonably in a standard crown.
Rat
50 Cal.
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I've always thought that a 6" group at 100 yards is the "limit", but I also think that at whatever range you can hit a paper plate, EVERY time is a good rule of thumb also. With a front-stuffer I pretty much go by the paper plate rule. (aka the Pie Pan)
:thumbsup:
I can hit a paper plate at 75 yards with Bess every time, so that's my range limit with her, although I would want close to ideal conditions to shoot at my self imposed range limit. (she has rifle sights) Now with my .58 minnie rifle, I can kill the plate easy at 100 yards, and beyond, but just don't feel right shooting it farther than that, (at game) or over 125 yards, although I might under IDEAL conditions. But probably not. I don't think I'd throw any ball, no matter how big further than 100.
:nono:
Having said that, for sure strive to find the most accurate load for the rifle anyway. Experiment. And sometimes the "established wisdom" is not alway correct...so, EXPERIMENT!
Rat
:thumbsup:
I can hit a paper plate at 75 yards with Bess every time, so that's my range limit with her, although I would want close to ideal conditions to shoot at my self imposed range limit. (she has rifle sights) Now with my .58 minnie rifle, I can kill the plate easy at 100 yards, and beyond, but just don't feel right shooting it farther than that, (at game) or over 125 yards, although I might under IDEAL conditions. But probably not. I don't think I'd throw any ball, no matter how big further than 100.
:nono:
Having said that, for sure strive to find the most accurate load for the rifle anyway. Experiment. And sometimes the "established wisdom" is not alway correct...so, EXPERIMENT!
Rat
Guest
I'm having to agree with Daryl on the paper plate issue, with one reservation.
The paper plate is almost exactly the size to the "kill zone" of a deer. If you can keep your shots in the kill zone you will be assured of a clean kill, all other things being equil.
This is a good target area to restrict ones shot with. Whatever maximum range you can keep all of your shots on the pie plate is your maximum deer hunting range no matter if it is 150 yds or 25 yds or 10 yds!
With a well made rifle and a good working load this might be 100-150 yds. With an unpatched RB from the same rifle, in an emergency, it might be 10 yds. From a Bess it might be 50 yds and from a scoped in-line it might be 200.
The kill zone of the species is the key to hunting accuracy. Moose and elk have a heart lung area the size of a basket ball, squrrils the size fo a walnut. What are you hunting and at what range can you keep all of your shots in the "kill zone"?
:imo:
That may not be the expected "target accuracy" when in formal competition under ideal circumstances. It is just the rule of thumb for real world hunting. My best shooting gun and my favorite hunting gun are not the same gun.
The paper plate is almost exactly the size to the "kill zone" of a deer. If you can keep your shots in the kill zone you will be assured of a clean kill, all other things being equil.
This is a good target area to restrict ones shot with. Whatever maximum range you can keep all of your shots on the pie plate is your maximum deer hunting range no matter if it is 150 yds or 25 yds or 10 yds!
With a well made rifle and a good working load this might be 100-150 yds. With an unpatched RB from the same rifle, in an emergency, it might be 10 yds. From a Bess it might be 50 yds and from a scoped in-line it might be 200.
The kill zone of the species is the key to hunting accuracy. Moose and elk have a heart lung area the size of a basket ball, squrrils the size fo a walnut. What are you hunting and at what range can you keep all of your shots in the "kill zone"?
:imo:
That may not be the expected "target accuracy" when in formal competition under ideal circumstances. It is just the rule of thumb for real world hunting. My best shooting gun and my favorite hunting gun are not the same gun.
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I agree with grouping on a paper plate for measuring the theoretical limits of a firearm. But to determine hunting accuracy, I prefer a one shot group- How far away can you hit the plate with your first shot, firing offhand or in any other field position? Usually a whole lot less than you can manage even three shots from a rest.
My GPR 54 will pretty consistently break 3 inches at 100 yards from a rest, hitting a paper plate all day long out to 150 yards. But firing one shot groups, my limits are 75 yards offhand or kneeling, and about 125 yards sitting or prone.
Then there's the little issue of range guesstimation. Even after years in the field, I have trouble distinguishing between 100 and 125 yards, or 125 yards and 150 yards. With PRB, that could add up to a miss pretty easily.
My GPR 54 will pretty consistently break 3 inches at 100 yards from a rest, hitting a paper plate all day long out to 150 yards. But firing one shot groups, my limits are 75 yards offhand or kneeling, and about 125 yards sitting or prone.
Then there's the little issue of range guesstimation. Even after years in the field, I have trouble distinguishing between 100 and 125 yards, or 125 yards and 150 yards. With PRB, that could add up to a miss pretty easily.
Guest
If I have a rifle with iron sights that won't do better than 5" at 100 it finds a new home pretty quick.
Now let me put some restrictions on that.
From a solid bench rest, on a good day, AFTER I find the load for the rifle, with NO wind to interfere.
Now if it's ME that's the problem...and is OFTEN IS.. then I need to restrick my shooting ditances to match my abilities.
I plan on hunting this deer season..that is if the "General" will give me a day or so off work..with my flint .58 jeager.
I've found a 50 yard laod with adequated power that will clover leave 3 shots. That is a CONFIDENCE builder.
I am limited to 75 yards at my home range so that's the distance I intend to sight in for.
My shots are likely going to be close..less than 75 yards, hopefully less than 50.
I need to get busy shooting from field positions, i.e. the 'squat' , kneeling, side of a tree, off hand with sling and so forth.
Now that I know the rifle will perform it's a matter of judging if I perform.
I agree with the paper plate target. If you can hit it under feild conditions EVERY TIME at a given range then that is YOUR range, be it 50 feet or 150 yards.
Now let me put some restrictions on that.
From a solid bench rest, on a good day, AFTER I find the load for the rifle, with NO wind to interfere.
Now if it's ME that's the problem...and is OFTEN IS.. then I need to restrick my shooting ditances to match my abilities.
I plan on hunting this deer season..that is if the "General" will give me a day or so off work..with my flint .58 jeager.
I've found a 50 yard laod with adequated power that will clover leave 3 shots. That is a CONFIDENCE builder.
I am limited to 75 yards at my home range so that's the distance I intend to sight in for.
My shots are likely going to be close..less than 75 yards, hopefully less than 50.
I need to get busy shooting from field positions, i.e. the 'squat' , kneeling, side of a tree, off hand with sling and so forth.
Now that I know the rifle will perform it's a matter of judging if I perform.
I agree with the paper plate target. If you can hit it under feild conditions EVERY TIME at a given range then that is YOUR range, be it 50 feet or 150 yards.
