Accidents It can happen to you

[Feltwad]

Why does that musket have a seam running down the barrel?.....and it looks mighty thin...

My question as well. Also, why is the bore so clean, without any powder fouling?

It's not actually a seam, it's a raised sighting flat that runs the length of the barrel. Not that uncommon for sporting guns of that vintage.

As to whether or not that barrel is too thin, one of the first things that needs to be done is have an accurate wall thickness measurement taken. .025 to .030 wall thickness is plenty in that region of the barrel. However, if the burst was caused by an obstruction, which it was by looks of the failure, a modern "nitro" barrel probably wouldn't have held up either.

Please forgive my ignorance but this sighting flat; how is that attached to the barrel? Or is the barrel itself flattened on the top? Could the sighting flat and how it is attached/part of the barrel be the cause of a weak spot?

The barrel sighting rib is part of the construction of the barrel and not soldered on , The image shows that the split in the barrel is down the centre of the sighing rib and not on the edge. The only part that is soldered is the ramrod rib on the under side .This burst was the cause of using a over shot wad that was less than 1/16 which the ramrod by passed leaving the wad on the wall of the bore thus causing a obstruction .
Feltwad

 

[coloradoclyde]

The barrel sighting rib is part of the construction of the barrel and not soldered on ,

Sounds like this might have been a fatal flaw in the design....Remember the de Havilland DH 106 Comet?

 

[William O.]

The barrel sighting rib is part of the construction of the barrel and not soldered on ,

Sounds like this might have been a fatal flaw in the design....Remember the de Havilland DH 106 Comet?

Metal fatigue?

 

[Col. Batguano]

Sounds like this might have been a fatal flaw in the design....Remember the de Havilland DH 106 Comet?

That was due to them using square rather than rounded edges on the windows more than anything else wasn't it?

 

[RAEDWALD]

Sounds like this might have been a fatal flaw in the design....Remember the de Havilland DH 106 Comet?

As OT trivia. The original DH106 windows were round cornered not square. All the period data supported this as adequate to the task. What was not known and had never been experienced was the effect of so many rapid pressurise/depressurise cycles and the choice of aluminium type and gauge. This caused metal fatigue which crystallised the metal and the initial crack ripped open catastrophically rather than progressively. Monitoring could not catch the initial crack before it would rip open.

De Havilland were perfectly well aware of corner stress in structures. Hence the significant rounding of the corners. However they were the first in the field and lessons were learned that were unknown beforehand. I had many happy flights in the beautifully elegant Comet 4 whose entire nose section was licenced to Aerospatiale and used on all the Caravelles. And a couple of less comfortable ones in the late 1980's between four Rolls Royce Griffon piston engines on AEW sorties in ancient tail wheel Avro Shackletons for UK air defence coverage using 3rd hand radars and hearing tales of them shallow dive bombing the Adoo in the Radfan.

 

[Zonie]

While the choice of material for the aircraft may have been a contributing factor, according to this U.S. Federal Aviation Administration "lessons learned" summary of the crashes of the de Havilland DH 106 Comet, the small corner radii at the corners of the square windows was the main reason for the failures.

Here is a link to that report:

http://lessonslearned.faa.gov/ll_main.cfm?TabID=1&LLID=28&LLTypeID=2


Hopefully we can get back to muzzle-loading firearm related accidents now.

 

[azmntman]

Years ago I took a .50 Hawkin out to shoot. Son was with me. I capped it to blow out any oil and when I fired it went off :shocked2: Seems the post it note I had on the gun fell off in the safe and the gun was loaded since last years hunt. I got to thinking how dumb kids (and some geezers) can be and "just popping a cap" what if they aimed at a car, or worse?? :surrender: ALWAYS aim at a safe target, always do a better job of marking yer gun loaded as well! I screwed up royally not using the ram rod to check before firing at a blade of grass. Would that have been an "accident"? I would say negligence. Glad I learned.

 

[cynthialee]

negligence is the mother of most accidents

Always check your barrel for a load first thing out of the safe! Every single time.

 

[SDSmlf]

IF, I bring a loaded (less prime with leather boot on the frizzen or no cap on the nipple) into the house/cabin, a brightly collected tag is attached by wire to the trigger guard and electrical tape is over the muzzle. My indicator that a change is in the barrel. Would only occur during hunting season (little over a month away). And out of habit, drop a ramrod down any ML barrel before loading. Have purchased loaded MLers..... We can not be too careful. An unintended discharge of a MLer (or any firearm) has the potential to leave a big hole in whatever is in front of it.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Ok!...perhaps my de Havilland comment missed my point.....What I was getting at is that 90 degree corners don't fair well on a curved surface under stress....If you look closely at the gun barrel you will notice it tore right on a 90 degree crease that formed the rib....The crease facilitated the tearing much like folding a piece of paper before tearing it....

"Vive la France" :wink:

 

[Okie Hog]

A warning about shooting out dry balls. They can be projected with enough force to seriously injure or kill a person.

The other day i dry balled my fake Navy Hawken rifle. i worked some Black MZ into the flame channel and under the nipple.

Fired the rifle and there was a loud "smack" on the target. The ball hit about 6" low at 50 yards. It went through the cardboard target and the tough plastic military silhouette behind.

 

[Col. Batguano]

Ok!...perhaps my de Havilland comment missed my point.....What I was getting at is that 90 degree corners don't fair well on a curved surface under stress....If you look closely at the gun barrel you will notice it tore right on a 90 degree crease that formed the rib....The crease facilitated the tearing much like folding a piece of paper before tearing it....

...which is why we don't shoot square bullets.

 

[smoothshooter]

I would not rule out poor quality of manufacturing.

 

[smoothshooter]

I would not be afrait to shoot a good quality Damascus gun myself, but the question is, how many decades have gone by since any particular gun has been inspected and tested by a proof house.
Just because it was good 50, 100, or 150 years ago doesn't mean it is still good now.

 

[Feltwad]

I would not rule out poor quality of manufacturing.

Manufacturing does not come into it ,the cause was a obstruction and a burst could have happened to any barrel new or old
Feltwad

 

[hanshi]

:thumbsup:

 

[RedFeather]

This has been an interesting thread to follow. I don't have any Damascus barreled muzzle loaders but have considered cartridge shotguns. While exploring the safety of such, I came across an article or post which discussed a potential hidden weakness. The conjecture was that the iron used in the twist is more prone to rusting if the gun is not properly maintained. This can be hard to inspect for. The theory does make some sense, at least to me.

There were a few speculations here on dieseling. I cannot see how ramming can compress the air quickly enough to raise temperatures to a flash point. The volume of air in the bore must be compressed very rapidly in order to capture the latent heat. I also shoot adult spring piston airguns which can diesel but those use a heavy, sealed piston driven quickly by a powerful spring. My guess is that detonations while ramming are due to embers or a crushed powder grain.

 

[Wes/Tex]

...which is why we don't shoot square bullets.

The Puckle Gun did but the square shot mags could only kosher for use against the heathen or infidels!
https://enoughgun.com/forum/download/file.php?id=1397 :shocked2: :wink: :haha:

 

[coloradoclyde]

I would not rule out poor quality of manufacturing.

Manufacturing does not come into it ,the cause was a obstruction and a burst could have happened to any barrel new or old
Feltwad

An obstruction surely was the cause....However, manufacturing does make a difference...
I have stuck two projectiles halfway down the bore over the years and had to fire them out,and had no problems...One in a rifle and one in a cannon.
Of course a thin barreled shotgun or fowler leaves no room for error.

 

[Dr5x]

Back in the 70's there was much more conversation about burst barrels and the crippling and occasional death that resulted from such events,
I understood that The people producing Douglas Barrels discontinued because of all the litigation those events caused,

Long before I suggested wiping between shots so that each shot came from the ame sized barrel I had suggested the wipe to remove any build up of baked on residue which will always make it hard to reload followup hots because if that build up makes it hard to get a patched ball down the barrel, what would happen if that residue prevented the patched ball from getting out of the barrel. At best you will have a bulged spot in the bore of the rifle ruing itof at worst a burst barrel.
I believe if you wipe between shots for accuracy or between every other shot for safety there is NO WAY you will have a burst barrel

I think a burst barrel is the fault of the rifleman and rarely the fault of the manufacturer.

Dutch Schoultz